** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

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pete75
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby pete75 » 17 Sep 2019, 9:18am

Mike Sales wrote:
windmiller wrote:The smug arrogant LIb Dems have played right into the hands of Cummings by proclaiming that democracy can be cancelled. They are so naive and puffed up with dubious morality that they can't even imagine that their Brexit nightmare will be like tea and cake with Mary Poppins, compared to the Freddy Krueger special home brew that they will be water boarded with for shafting the majority of voters.


It requires a peculiar sort of doublethink to believe that voting cancels democracy.

It gives the electorate another chance to express their will, or to change their mind.
I suspect you are terrified that now we know more about Brexit, we have thought better of it.


Yep the little chap is living up to the first part of his name - he's getting very windy about what may happen.

mercalia
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mercalia » 17 Sep 2019, 9:31am

mjr wrote:
mercalia wrote:The Fantasy that is the Liberal-Dems

Is there any point replying to this gibberish when you won't reply to questions?

The Liberal Democrats are one of the few parties not offering a unicorn-pooping-rainbows Brexit, unlike the Conservatives, Labour, BxP and probably others.

I agree that simply revoking won't be the end of it, but it could be the beginning of the end...


what question? the last many pages have been some slanging match between a few here?

Psamathe
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Psamathe » 17 Sep 2019, 9:43am

RRSODL wrote:
mjr wrote:
mercalia wrote:The Fantasy that is the Liberal-Dems

Is there any point replying to this gibberish when you won't reply to questions?

The Liberal Democrats are one of the few parties not offering a unicorn-pooping-rainbows Brexit, unlike the Conservatives, Labour, BxP and probably others.

I agree that simply revoking won't be the end of it, but it could be the beginning of the end...


And where democracy falls in all this? Parliament has not mandate to revoke article 50.

If the Liberal Democrats want to revoke article 50 then I'd say let them campaign for a revoke of article 50 on the next General Elections and if they win by overall majority then they would have a mandate to revoke article 50 and any supporter of brexit that believes in democracy should respect the decision.

I might be mis-understanding your post but I thought the Lib Dems were not saying they were going to revoke Article 50 now ('cos they can't) but that it was to be their policy for the coming General Election where they would hope to get a mandate.

But given we elect MPs as our representatives to make decisions in our best interests, etc. in one respect they currently have a mandate to act in our best interests and if they collectively decided that it was in our best interest to revoke Article 50 then the last General Election (which is more recent than the EU Referendum) could be said to have given them this mandate.

I'm using "mandate" in the sense of
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/mandate wrote:mandate[ man-deyt ]
noun
a command or authorization to act in a particular way on a public issue given by the electorate to its representative:

(That does not mean I'm so happy with many of the decisions made by our politicians that I don't agree with and would argue against ..... so maybe a bit of hypocrisy on my part arguing this for something I would prefer).

Ian

Oldjohnw
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Oldjohnw » 17 Sep 2019, 9:47am

If you don't want or disagree with the LibDems cancelling A50, just don't vote for them. That is democracy.

Above all, don't be like the people who, at the referendum, voted to hit Cameron and Osborne not realising what they would get.
Last edited by Oldjohnw on 17 Sep 2019, 11:00am, edited 1 time in total.
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mjr
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mjr » 17 Sep 2019, 9:53am

mercalia wrote:
mjr wrote:
mercalia wrote:The Fantasy that is the Liberal-Dems

Is there any point replying to this gibberish when you won't reply to questions?

The Liberal Democrats are one of the few parties not offering a unicorn-pooping-rainbows Brexit, unlike the Conservatives, Labour, BxP and probably others.

I agree that simply revoking won't be the end of it, but it could be the beginning of the end...


what question? the last many pages have been some slanging match between a few here?

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=108977&p=1397577#p1397577 (found by clicking my name, "Search user's posts" then scrolling down until you see me quoting your words)

Why are you so keen to post repeatedly that entirely unsurprising repeat of LD policy instead of Boris's latest Machiavellian diplomatic acts?
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Psamathe
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Psamathe » 17 Sep 2019, 9:56am

pwa wrote:The irony of the Lib Dem position is staggering. For as long as I can remember they have campaigned for proportional representation. But now they seek to overturn the result of a vote in which every vote counted by winning a majority of seats in a first past the post system. They need to have a long hard look in the mirror.

In theory they could have a parliamentary majority with 40% of the votes and overturn a measure invoked by 52% of votes. Their commitment to democracy is shot.

I agree but also sympathise and can see valid case for their intent.

They seek a better electoral system but whilst arguing for that they have to work within the existing electoral system. In effect "The irony of the Lib Dem position is staggering" would mean they could never govern if they won because exactly the same would apply to everything in their manifesto and every policy the came up with.

I personally think that a General Election is no solution and that we should have a referendum first. But Piffle and Corbyn want General Elections, which whilst being pushed (by some politicians) as "Brexit votes", reality is Piffle and Corbyn are already campaigning on a host of other issues (NHS, police, utility companies, etc.). We are continually told that the public dislike elections and votes beyond every few years (I see no evidence of that but politicians seem to say it fairly often) - and if that is the case a General election followed by a referendum shortly after might give a not so representative referendum result (maybe low turn-out, maybe public "anger" at another vote so soon).

Ian

reohn2
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby reohn2 » 17 Sep 2019, 10:06am

pwa wrote:The irony of the Lib Dem position is staggering. For as long as I can remember they have campaigned for proportional representation. But now they seek to overturn the result of a vote in which every vote counted by winning a majority of seats in a first past the post system. They need to have a long hard look in the mirror.

In theory they could have a parliamentary majority with 40% of the votes and overturn a measure invoked by 52% of votes. Their commitment to democracy is shot.

I disagree,they're,like they've always done,are entering into an imperfect policitcal hsystem they're forced into due to having no alternative.
They're also open and honest in what their aims are in the forthcoming general election,the test of which will be soon.

Their test would come should they gain a majority,if they don't persue a PR mandate,but IMO that goal with the current state of the nation,which is dire,would have to wait as there's much undoing of the past ten years of utter diabolical and incompetent Tory government.
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Psamathe
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Psamathe » 17 Sep 2019, 10:08am

mjr wrote:
roubaixtuesday wrote:
Mick F wrote:I don't want the UK cast adrift. Never have done.


Yet here we are. Adrift and humiliated. By Luxembourg.

Image

Oh well, Luxembourg is ruled by the EU so we won't need their agreement for a trade deal... Oh wait that's not reality is it? Piffle is annoying people we would need not to veto stuff. I wonder why.

But never mind, the Leave lunatics will keep wittering on about the future manifestoes of small parties and ignore the massive international diplomacy mess now in progress.

Boris made something of a fool of himself yesterday and I'm glad they "empty chaired him". Most specialist reporters (political correspondents) seem to be saying that Luxembourg PM just let the feeling within the EU out into public; that the EU has been feeling the frustrations he voiced in private but were being very restrained and only revealing those opinions "off-the-record". Luxembourg just put the "on-the-record".

It's worrying how badly Piffle is frustrating those from whom we need such goodwill and cooperation (particularly given his track record of insulting them - which to me shows that Boris is not well suited to the role of PM (actually totally unsuited).

Ian

RRSODL
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby RRSODL » 17 Sep 2019, 10:11am

Psamathe wrote:
RRSODL wrote:
mjr wrote:Is there any point replying to this gibberish when you won't reply to questions?

The Liberal Democrats are one of the few parties not offering a unicorn-pooping-rainbows Brexit, unlike the Conservatives, Labour, BxP and probably others.

I agree that simply revoking won't be the end of it, but it could be the beginning of the end...


And where democracy falls in all this? Parliament has not mandate to revoke article 50.

If the Liberal Democrats want to revoke article 50 then I'd say let them campaign for a revoke of article 50 on the next General Elections and if they win by overall majority then they would have a mandate to revoke article 50 and any supporter of brexit that believes in democracy should respect the decision.

I might be mis-understanding your post but I thought the Lib Dems were not saying they were going to revoke Article 50 now ('cos they can't) but that it was to be their policy for the coming General Election where they would hope to get a mandate.

But given we elect MPs as our representatives to make decisions in our best interests, etc. in one respect they currently have a mandate to act in our best interests and if they collectively decided that it was in our best interest to revoke Article 50 then the last General Election (which is more recent than the EU Referendum) could be said to have given them this mandate.

I'm using "mandate" in the sense of
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/mandate wrote:mandate[ man-deyt ]
noun
a command or authorization to act in a particular way on a public issue given by the electorate to its representative:

(That does not mean I'm so happy with many of the decisions made by our politicians that I don't agree with and would argue against ..... so maybe a bit of hypocrisy on my part arguing this for something I would prefer).

Ian


The Lib Dems just voted at their annual conference to fight for revoking article 50 and they are arguing that as we stand, if Labour, SNP, etc join the Lib Dems on a vote, parliament can revoke article 50. This is clearly undemocratic hence my view this will backfire on them, having said that, I doubt very much that Labour would be up fo it.... it would be polical suicide for Corbyn.

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al_yrpal
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby al_yrpal » 17 Sep 2019, 10:16am

A second 'Clegg' moment I suspect, oblivion awaits....

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Mike Sales
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Mike Sales » 17 Sep 2019, 10:16am

RRSODL wrote:
The Lib Dems just voted at their annual conference to fight for revoking article 50 and they are arguing that as we stand, if Labour, SNP, etc join the Lib Dems on a vote, parliament can revoke article 50. This is clearly undemocratic hence my view this will backfire on them, having said that, I doubt very much that Labour would be up fo it.... it would be polical suicide for Corbyn.


If the voters elect a majority of MPs who stand on a revoke platform, it would be undemocratic for parliament to revoke?

reohn2
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby reohn2 » 17 Sep 2019, 10:17am

pwa wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:
Yes, but it happens to be the only system available. Should they opt out of electins because of the system?

To be consistent with their own stated principles they would need to run a second referendum. It would be an abandonment of those principles to overturn the referendum result with, say 42% of the vote in a General Election. The referendum was the most direct form of democracy and to overturn it with FPTP is the opposite of what the Lib Dems have always stood for.

That is a delusional stance.
The referendum was won on outright lies and illegally funded by shysters and liars.
I believe the nations attitude to brexit has changed with that knowledge as the people are far more aware of what any kind of brexit means for themselves and the country and as such would now IMO would overwhelmingly vote to remain,should the LibDems gain power it would be confirmation of that belief.
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mercalia
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mercalia » 17 Sep 2019, 10:17am

RRSODL wrote:
Psamathe wrote:
RRSODL wrote:
And where democracy falls in all this? Parliament has not mandate to revoke article 50.

If the Liberal Democrats want to revoke article 50 then I'd say let them campaign for a revoke of article 50 on the next General Elections and if they win by overall majority then they would have a mandate to revoke article 50 and any supporter of brexit that believes in democracy should respect the decision.

I might be mis-understanding your post but I thought the Lib Dems were not saying they were going to revoke Article 50 now ('cos they can't) but that it was to be their policy for the coming General Election where they would hope to get a mandate.

But given we elect MPs as our representatives to make decisions in our best interests, etc. in one respect they currently have a mandate to act in our best interests and if they collectively decided that it was in our best interest to revoke Article 50 then the last General Election (which is more recent than the EU Referendum) could be said to have given them this mandate.

I'm using "mandate" in the sense of
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/mandate wrote:mandate[ man-deyt ]
noun
a command or authorization to act in a particular way on a public issue given by the electorate to its representative:

(That does not mean I'm so happy with many of the decisions made by our politicians that I don't agree with and would argue against ..... so maybe a bit of hypocrisy on my part arguing this for something I would prefer).

Ian


The Lib Dems just voted at their annual conference to fight for revoking article 50 and they are arguing that as we stand, if Labour, SNP, etc join the Lib Dems on a vote, parliament can revoke article 50. This is clearly undemocratic hence my view this will backfire on them, having said that, I doubt very much that Labour would be up fo it.... it would be polical suicide for Corbyn.


how can he as he voted to activate article 50 in the first place? Only the Lib Dem mps didnt I think, they were amongst the 100 or so mps who voted against it. So atleast they are being consistant

mercalia
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mercalia » 17 Sep 2019, 10:20am

mjr wrote:
mercalia wrote:well Jo Swinson made me laugh, the BBC reports on World at One, she wont support either a Boris or Corbyn govt. Seems like Boris is not the only one living in a fantasy world if she thinks the Liberals stand a chance of winning an election?

You and that BBC reporter make me laugh. The UK electorate has a bit of a problem with political pragmatism in the past, so if she says she's open to coalitions, then Cummings will run "Vote Jo = Get Chicken" ads and Labour will run "Vote Jo = Get Lying Hulk" ads. What else could she do at this point but make what I suspect are carefully-worded denials?

mercalia wrote:She has only doubled the number of MPs she "has" by defections?

Is that not part of being a successful parliamentary party leader? Do they count any less? Haven't both Conservatives and Labour accepted "defections" like Winston Churchill and "the awful Shaun Woodward" in the past? All the major parties claim to be "broad churches" or "big tents" after all, to perpetuate the myth that they can govern alone.

mercalia wrote:And furthermore she wants to revoke article 50 without another referendum :roll: I wonder what funny juice she is on :lol:

As I understand it, the theory is that a Lib Dem election win would be a stronger mandate. What funny juice are you on if you think an advisory referendum overrules a later election result?


I thought your "questions" were rhetorical ones.

Psamathe
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Psamathe » 17 Sep 2019, 10:24am

RRSODL wrote:
Psamathe wrote:
RRSODL wrote:
And where democracy falls in all this? Parliament has not mandate to revoke article 50.

If the Liberal Democrats want to revoke article 50 then I'd say let them campaign for a revoke of article 50 on the next General Elections and if they win by overall majority then they would have a mandate to revoke article 50 and any supporter of brexit that believes in democracy should respect the decision.

I might be mis-understanding your post but I thought the Lib Dems were not saying they were going to revoke Article 50 now ('cos they can't) but that it was to be their policy for the coming General Election where they would hope to get a mandate.

But given we elect MPs as our representatives to make decisions in our best interests, etc. in one respect they currently have a mandate to act in our best interests and if they collectively decided that it was in our best interest to revoke Article 50 then the last General Election (which is more recent than the EU Referendum) could be said to have given them this mandate.

I'm using "mandate" in the sense of
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/mandate wrote:mandate[ man-deyt ]
noun
a command or authorization to act in a particular way on a public issue given by the electorate to its representative:

(That does not mean I'm so happy with many of the decisions made by our politicians that I don't agree with and would argue against ..... so maybe a bit of hypocrisy on my part arguing this for something I would prefer).

Ian


The Lib Dems just voted at their annual conference to fight for revoking article 50 and they are arguing that as we stand, if Labour, SNP, etc join the Lib Dems on a vote, parliament can revoke article 50. This is clearly undemocratic hence my view this will backfire on them, having said that, I doubt very much that Labour would be up fo it.... it would be polical suicide for Corbyn.

I see your point but in a representative democracy we elect our representatives to make decisions on our behalf, in our best interests. We have elected the current set of MPs so in effect we have mandated whatever decisions they make, we have authorised them to make these decisions by electing them in the 2017 General Election (authorised by choosing those we trust to make decisions on our behalf).

Thus, if the Lib Dems campaign and change enough minds now and Article 50 is revoked before any further public vote, that is a decision made democratically by those we have mandated to make such decisions. So there is an argument that it is perfectly democratic.

But I'll confess to a degree of hypocrisy because the same argument applies to the Conservatives cutting social benefits, same argument holds for the Conservatives tax cuts for the wealthy, same for the Iraq War, etc. and I'd be denying my own "mandate" argument above for those types of decisions.

Ian