Cyril Haearn wrote:Whatabout Fairbourne, it may be abandoned soon, the elderly English speaking residents may be billeted in places where Welsh is the dominant languge
This is the sort of immigration of which I have come to disapprove - even though I was a-one of them myself. Of course, now I am "a native" and despise those "others" from "over there".
Coming over here .... with their hoity-toity, namby pamby.....
Cugel, in Inspector Grimm mode.
The inhabitants of Fairbourne have already immigrated, Bryn's idea is about them moving within Wales.
Da chi'n siarad Cymraeg?
I hope to meet Cugel at the Tregaron Eisteddfod next year
The Grauniad just reported about use of Welsh in hospitals Most Welsh people in Gwynedd are more bilingual than most of us, perfect in English too, but many use Welsh at school, at work, at home, old people may keep Welsh and lose English
I was shocked to read that Arthog community had a relatively low % of Welsh speakers (that is because it includes Fairbourne), Arthog is actually quite Welsh, there are some nice dwellings above the tide line, and the perfect Llynnau Cregennan
Entertainer, juvenile, curmudgeon, PoB, 30120 Cycling-of course, but it is far better on a Gillott We love safety cameras, we hate bullies
Cugel wrote: This is the sort of immigration of which I have come to disapprove - even though I was a-one of them myself. Of course, now I am "a native" and despise those "others" from "over there".
Coming over here .... with their hoity-toity, namby pamby.....
Cugel, in Inspector Grimm mode.
The inhabitants of Fairbourne have already immigrated, Bryn's idea is about them moving within Wales.
Da chi'n siarad Cymraeg?
I hope to meet Cugel at the Tregaron Eisteddfod next year
The Grauniad just reported about use of Welsh in hospitals Most Welsh people in Gwynedd are more bilingual than most of us, perfect in English too, but many use Welsh at school, at work, at home, old people may keep Welsh and lose English
I was shocked to read that Arthog community had a relatively low % of Welsh speakers (that is because it includes Fairbourne), Arthog is actually quite Welsh, there are some nice dwellings above the tide line, and the perfect Llynnau Cregennan
One of my staff has just moved to Wales.. They have to answer the phone in Welsh, but can then speak in English.
At the interview, they were told his English accent was an advantage as it would prevent people demanding that he spoke in Welsh.. an expectation of anyone with a vaguely Welsh accent
Cyril Haearn wrote:Whatabout Fairbourne, it may be abandoned soon, the elderly English speaking residents may be billeted in places where Welsh is the dominant languge
This is the sort of immigration of which I have come to disapprove - even though I was a-one of them myself. Of course, now I am "a native" and despise those "others" from "over there".
Coming over here .... with their hoity-toity, namby pamby.....
Cugel, in Inspector Grimm mode.
The inhabitants of Fairbourne have already immigrated, Bryn's idea is about them moving within Wales.
Da chi'n siarad Cymraeg?
Alas, I speak not the Welsh despite having had the necessary tongue transplant and vibration exercises. But I am trying to learn via Duo-lingo. I have no opportunity to immerse myself in a Welsh speaking-only situation, though, which is probably the only way I'd ever become competent. I hope to be able to read Welsh in a year or two though.
Today I read a story about some bloke who's done an analysis of the Welsh Brexit vote to discover that a) 21% of people living in Wales were born in England and b) it was probably their vote (they are generally older people) that saw "Wales" apparently vote 52-48 in favour of leaving. In fact, the Welsh themselves (native-born) probably voted to stay. They did anyway in Ceredigion (the region I live in now).
I hasten to add that I wasn't living in Wales at the time of the blasted referendum; and voted to stay anyway.
Cugel
“Practical men who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence are usually the slaves of some defunct economist”.
John Maynard Keynes
Cugel wrote: Alas, I speak not the Welsh despite having had the necessary tongue transplant and vibration exercises. But I am trying to learn via Duo-lingo. I have no opportunity to immerse myself in a Welsh speaking-only situation, though, which is probably the only way I'd ever become competent. I hope to be able to read Welsh in a year or two though. Cugel
I think you are right; immersion is necessary for most of us. Without the help of a tutor who shares your pillow much hard work is needed. I am too idle and was not obliged to siarad to live, so failed to learn. A friend from Shetland learned Welsh well enough to gain teaching qualifications at Coleg Normal (Welsh medium), and ultimately teach. I am in awe.
It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?
Cugel wrote: Today I read a story about some bloke who's done an analysis of the Welsh Brexit vote to discover that a) 21% of people living in Wales were born in England and b) it was probably their vote (they are generally older people) that saw "Wales" apparently vote 52-48 in favour of leaving. In fact, the Welsh themselves (native-born) probably voted to stay. They did anyway in Ceredigion (the region I live in now).
Careful, Cugel. I'm sure that you, like me, would not see fit to suggest that the votes of Irish born people living in England, for example, are somehow not as valid those of the "native born". Anyone who meets the eligibility to vote criteria is as valid and important as the next person. Your words imply that there are proper Welsh and not-so-proper like you and me. Anyway, I think if you did some sampling in the former coal mining valleys of South Wales you would find strong support for Brexit. And not a lot of bigotry. It might challenge some of your preconceptions.
Cugel wrote: Today I read a story about some bloke who's done an analysis of the Welsh Brexit vote to discover that a) 21% of people living in Wales were born in England and b) it was probably their vote (they are generally older people) that saw "Wales" apparently vote 52-48 in favour of leaving. In fact, the Welsh themselves (native-born) probably voted to stay. They did anyway in Ceredigion (the region I live in now).
Careful, Cugel. I'm sure that you, like me, would not see fit to suggest that the votes of Irish born people living in England, for example, are somehow not as valid those of the "native born". Anyone who meets the eligibility to vote criteria is as valid and important as the next person. Your words imply that there are proper Welsh and not-so-proper like you and me. Anyway, I think if you did some sampling in the former coal mining valleys of South Wales you would find strong support for Brexit. And not a lot of bigotry. It might challenge some of your preconceptions.
It is ironic though that a vote to limit migration was successful because of the immigrant vote
Cugel wrote: Today I read a story about some bloke who's done an analysis of the Welsh Brexit vote to discover that a) 21% of people living in Wales were born in England and b) it was probably their vote (they are generally older people) that saw "Wales" apparently vote 52-48 in favour of leaving. In fact, the Welsh themselves (native-born) probably voted to stay. They did anyway in Ceredigion (the region I live in now).
Careful, Cugel. I'm sure that you, like me, would not see fit to suggest that the votes of Irish born people living in England, for example, are somehow not as valid those of the "native born". Anyone who meets the eligibility to vote criteria is as valid and important as the next person. Your words imply that there are proper Welsh and not-so-proper like you and me. Anyway, I think if you did some sampling in the former coal mining valleys of South Wales you would find strong support for Brexit. And not a lot of bigotry. It might challenge some of your preconceptions.
Well certainly in the brexit referendum people born in Poland, Latvia, Lithuania etc were not allowed to vote. They're no more foreign than someone born in the Irish Republic who are also EU migrants. I remember at the start of this thread you said your father was born in Ireland and came here as an immigrant but that you were voting Brexit to keep out the EU migrants you don't want here.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
Cugel wrote: Today I read a story about some bloke who's done an analysis of the Welsh Brexit vote to discover that a) 21% of people living in Wales were born in England and b) it was probably their vote (they are generally older people) that saw "Wales" apparently vote 52-48 in favour of leaving. In fact, the Welsh themselves (native-born) probably voted to stay. They did anyway in Ceredigion (the region I live in now).
Careful, Cugel. I'm sure that you, like me, would not see fit to suggest that the votes of Irish born people living in England, for example, are somehow not as valid those of the "native born". Anyone who meets the eligibility to vote criteria is as valid and important as the next person. Your words imply that there are proper Welsh and not-so-proper like you and me. Anyway, I think if you did some sampling in the former coal mining valleys of South Wales you would find strong support for Brexit. And not a lot of bigotry. It might challenge some of your preconceptions.
Well certainly in the brexit referendum people born in Poland, Latvia, Lithuania etc were not allowed to vote. They're no more foreign than someone born in the Irish Republic who are also EU migrants. I remember at the start of this thread you said your father was born in Ireland and came here as an immigrant but that you were voting Brexit to keep out the EU migrants you don't want here.
My father was Irish but descended from Welsh, from the twelth century or thereabouts, so if I were playing the "Who is most Welsh?" game, which I am not, I could have a card to play. The only card worth playing is that of who is eligible. Descended from Somali (common in Cardiff), fine. Other UK, fine. Irish (traditionally very close having once been part of the UK) fine. Naturalised UK but originating from elsewhere, also fine. A French born friend has dual citizenship and always votes here. No problem. All welcome to vote in Welsh and UK elections. All equal. Quite a broad range of eligibility really. Where would you draw the line? Perhaps in a way that happens to give a result you prefer?
Cugel wrote: Today I read a story about some bloke who's done an analysis of the Welsh Brexit vote to discover that a) 21% of people living in Wales were born in England and b) it was probably their vote (they are generally older people) that saw "Wales" apparently vote 52-48 in favour of leaving. In fact, the Welsh themselves (native-born) probably voted to stay. They did anyway in Ceredigion (the region I live in now).
Careful, Cugel. I'm sure that you, like me, would not see fit to suggest that the votes of Irish born people living in England, for example, are somehow not as valid those of the "native born". Anyone who meets the eligibility to vote criteria is as valid and important as the next person. Your words imply that there are proper Welsh and not-so-proper like you and me. Anyway, I think if you did some sampling in the former coal mining valleys of South Wales you would find strong support for Brexit. And not a lot of bigotry. It might challenge some of your preconceptions.
It is ironic though that a vote to limit migration was successful because of the immigrant vote
Interesting that you consider crossing the English/Welsh border as migration. I don't. I didn't consider Welsh neighbours to be immigrants when I was living in England and I don't consider myself as an immigrant as an English person in Wales. An "incomer", certainly.
Cugel wrote:Today I read a story about some bloke who's done an analysis of the Welsh Brexit vote to discover that a) 21% of people living in Wales were born in England and b) it was probably their vote (they are generally older people) that saw "Wales" apparently vote 52-48 in favour of leaving. In fact, the Welsh themselves (native-born) probably voted to stay. They did anyway in Ceredigion (the region I live in now).
Cugel
I would guess that most of the English immigrants I knew amongst our expat. friends in Gwynedd would have voted remain.
It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?
pwa wrote:Careful, Cugel. I'm sure that you, like me, would not see fit to suggest that the votes of Irish born people living in England, for example, are somehow not as valid those of the "native born". Anyone who meets the eligibility to vote criteria is as valid and important as the next person. Your words imply that there are proper Welsh and not-so-proper like you and me. Anyway, I think if you did some sampling in the former coal mining valleys of South Wales you would find strong support for Brexit. And not a lot of bigotry. It might challenge some of your preconceptions.
Well certainly in the brexit referendum people born in Poland, Latvia, Lithuania etc were not allowed to vote. They're no more foreign than someone born in the Irish Republic who are also EU migrants. I remember at the start of this thread you said your father was born in Ireland and came here as an immigrant but that you were voting Brexit to keep out the EU migrants you don't want here.
My father was Irish but descended from Welsh, from the twelth century or thereabouts, so if I were playing the "Who is most Welsh?" game, which I am not, I could have a card to play. The only card worth playing is that of who is eligible. Descended from Somali (common in Cardiff), fine. Other UK, fine. Irish (traditionally very close having once been part of the UK) fine. Naturalised UK but originating from elsewhere, also fine. A French born friend has dual citizenship and always votes here. No problem. All welcome to vote in Welsh and UK elections. All equal. Quite a broad range of eligibility really. Where would you draw the line? Perhaps in a way that happens to give a result you prefer?
Well looking at that little list you obviously draw the line at those you haven't mentioned and who you are on record as saying you don't want here - people from Poland and the Baltics which is where most EU migrants are from. my ancestry is from there way back and I don't have a British surname. Despite being born here I've been told by people of your ilk that I'm not proper British and shouldn't be taking up a job and home that some "proper British" should have.
If you think Ireland has ever really been a part of the United Kingdom you don't know much about the place.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
Cugel wrote: Today I read a story about some bloke who's done an analysis of the Welsh Brexit vote to discover that a) 21% of people living in Wales were born in England and b) it was probably their vote (they are generally older people) that saw "Wales" apparently vote 52-48 in favour of leaving. In fact, the Welsh themselves (native-born) probably voted to stay. They did anyway in Ceredigion (the region I live in now).
Careful, Cugel. I'm sure that you, like me, would not see fit to suggest that the votes of Irish born people living in England, for example, are somehow not as valid those of the "native born". Anyone who meets the eligibility to vote criteria is as valid and important as the next person. Your words imply that there are proper Welsh and not-so-proper like you and me. Anyway, I think if you did some sampling in the former coal mining valleys of South Wales you would find strong support for Brexit. And not a lot of bigotry. It might challenge some of your preconceptions.
But it does beg the question, this article, concerning what cultural zeitgeists drive which sort of attitudes to various things, eh? Personally I find the local Welsh - those speaking the language or otherwise - rather more level-headed, pragmatic, realistic and otherwise grounded than many of those who have come here from England and failed to leave some of their less pleasant little England attitudes behind.
It's something of a paradox that many Welsh people who have a strong pride in being Welsh are those who are least likely to harbour paranoid beliefs about the EU. Perhaps it's because the Welsh are sure of who they are whilst the Little Englanders are often hollowed out so that they could be filled with stuffing made of old Borisgraphs and Hate Mails?
Cugel, going native.
“Practical men who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence are usually the slaves of some defunct economist”.
John Maynard Keynes
pwa wrote:Careful, Cugel. I'm sure that you, like me, would not see fit to suggest that the votes of Irish born people living in England, for example, are somehow not as valid those of the "native born". Anyone who meets the eligibility to vote criteria is as valid and important as the next person. Your words imply that there are proper Welsh and not-so-proper like you and me. Anyway, I think if you did some sampling in the former coal mining valleys of South Wales you would find strong support for Brexit. And not a lot of bigotry. It might challenge some of your preconceptions.
It is ironic though that a vote to limit migration was successful because of the immigrant vote
Interesting that you consider crossing the English/Welsh border as migration. I don't. I didn't consider Welsh neighbours to be immigrants when I was living in England and I don't consider myself as an immigrant as an English person in Wales. An "incomer", certainly.
I've always considered the English, Welsh and Scottish to be British and fully entitled to reside anywhere they wish in Britain. My mother's Welsh parents moved to England from a small Gwent mining town in the 1930s looking for work and a better quality of life, my Grandmother once said that back in her school days it was forbidden to speak in Welsh, a caning offence if overheard, so to save a sore botty they were brought up English speakers albeit with a wonderful smooth Welsh accent. i certainly never considered them to be immigrants!
My dad on the other hand is as English as a Lord [ but without title and the bags of money ], so i was brought up in England with my own reckoning of being British and because i am of the British Isles, It's strange how things work out, but due to job opportunity during my 40s i moved to the Welsh side of the Welsh Marches where i've made my happy home, and as far as I'm concerned can consider myself Welsh [ if i so please ] although brought up quintessential English my DNA really is half Welsh - perhaps that is why i voted Remain
pwa wrote:Careful, Cugel. I'm sure that you, like me, would not see fit to suggest that the votes of Irish born people living in England, for example, are somehow not as valid those of the "native born". Anyone who meets the eligibility to vote criteria is as valid and important as the next person. Your words imply that there are proper Welsh and not-so-proper like you and me. Anyway, I think if you did some sampling in the former coal mining valleys of South Wales you would find strong support for Brexit. And not a lot of bigotry. It might challenge some of your preconceptions.
Well certainly in the brexit referendum people born in Poland, Latvia, Lithuania etc were not allowed to vote. They're no more foreign than someone born in the Irish Republic who are also EU migrants. I remember at the start of this thread you said your father was born in Ireland and came here as an immigrant but that you were voting Brexit to keep out the EU migrants you don't want here.
My father was Irish but descended from Welsh, from the twelth century or thereabouts, so if I were playing the "Who is most Welsh?" game, which I am not, I could have a card to play. The only card worth playing is that of who is eligible. Descended from Somali (common in Cardiff), fine. Other UK, fine. Irish (traditionally very close having once been part of the UK) fine. Naturalised UK but originating from elsewhere, also fine. A French born friend has dual citizenship and always votes here. No problem. All welcome to vote in Welsh and UK elections. All equal. Quite a broad range of eligibility really. Where would you draw the line? Perhaps in a way that happens to give a result you prefer?
I know that our imperial throwback compatriots view this as radical heresy, but I would have let all those affected by potential loss of EU citizenship or residency rights vote, including UK citizens long- term resident abroad and EU citizens indefinitely resident in the UK. They would have had to be allowed in a binding vote.
Do the former mining communities have any real reasons to expect benefits from leaving, or is it as Lord Ashcroft polls report, with them swept along by the "affluent eurosceptic"?
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.
I think the Cymros of Gwynedd and Brechfashire are more Welsh than people of the Valleys who dinnae speak Welsh Maybe both groups would not like being described as English or half English
Cugel, Debs, pwa are half English, half Welsh, I assert (do they agree?)
Entertainer, juvenile, curmudgeon, PoB, 30120 Cycling-of course, but it is far better on a Gillott We love safety cameras, we hate bullies
