** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

[Debs]

I think the Cymros of Gwynedd and Brechfashire are more Welsh than people of the Valleys who dinnae speak Welsh
Maybe both groups would not like being described as English or half English

Cugel, Debs, pwa are half English, half Welsh, I assert (do they agree?)

They say Wales is indeed [ don't ask me who they are ] a country of true Welsh up north where welsh is commonly spoken, and the 'lesser' Anglo-Welsh down south. I've met many born and bred Welsh speaking people who are far more Welsh than i, and the juxtaposition makes my half English side look larger than life.

Plus 'mother-tongue' language tends to have a huge bearing on a persons national and social identity.

I'm quite okay about being a half-cast Brit but if i ever found out i was 52% English and 48% Welsh, i would demand a conformationally DNA test!

[pwa]

Well certainly in the brexit referendum people born in Poland, Latvia, Lithuania etc were not allowed to vote. They're no more foreign than someone born in the Irish Republic who are also EU migrants. I remember at the start of this thread you said your father was born in Ireland and came here as an immigrant but that you were voting Brexit to keep out the EU migrants you don't want here.

My father was Irish but descended from Welsh, from the twelth century or thereabouts, so if I were playing the "Who is most Welsh?" game, which I am not, I could have a card to play. The only card worth playing is that of who is eligible. Descended from Somali (common in Cardiff), fine. Other UK, fine. Irish (traditionally very close having once been part of the UK) fine. Naturalised UK but originating from elsewhere, also fine. A French born friend has dual citizenship and always votes here. No problem. All welcome to vote in Welsh and UK elections. All equal. Quite a broad range of eligibility really. Where would you draw the line? Perhaps in a way that happens to give a result you prefer?

Well looking at that little list you obviously draw the line at those you haven't mentioned and who you are on record as saying you don't want here - people from Poland and the Baltics which is where most EU migrants are from. my ancestry is from there way back and I don't have a British surname. Despite being born here I've been told by people of your ilk that I'm not proper British and shouldn't be taking up a job and home that some "proper British" should have.

If you think Ireland has ever really been a part of the United Kingdom you don't know much about the place.

Ireland was in the Union but left. Not that it is a major point here.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Ki ... nd_Ireland


People of my ilk? I have told you countless times that I accept as British anyone who is settled here and chooses to be British, so why would you suspect that I would reject their offspring? My "line" for voting includes anyone who is sufficiently settled here to be considered a permanent resident. The closer the official line is to that the better, as far as I am concerned. The more it deviates from that, the less comfortable I am with it.

[pwa]

I know that our imperial throwback compatriots view this as radical heresy, but I would have let all those affected by potential loss of EU citizenship or residency rights vote, including UK citizens long- term resident abroad and EU citizens indefinitely resident in the UK. They would have had to be allowed in a binding vote.

Do the former mining communities have any real reasons to expect benefits from leaving, or is it as Lord Ashcroft polls report, with them swept along by the "affluent eurosceptic"?

Well, my own preference would have been for anyone properly established here and behaving as a long term resident to be able to vote. People with a long term stake, if you like. That definitely does not include people who have left.

[pwa]

But it does beg the question, this article, concerning what cultural zeitgeists drive which sort of attitudes to various things, eh? Personally I find the local Welsh - those speaking the language or otherwise - rather more level-headed, pragmatic, realistic and otherwise grounded than many of those who have come here from England and failed to leave some of their less pleasant little England attitudes behind.

It's something of a paradox that many Welsh people who have a strong pride in being Welsh are those who are least likely to harbour paranoid beliefs about the EU. Perhaps it's because the Welsh are sure of who they are whilst the Little Englanders are often hollowed out so that they could be filled with stuffing made of old Borisgraphs and Hate Mails?

Cugel, going native.

People from farming communities in areas of low population are often relatively level headed. I don't think it is just a Welsh thing. Pragmatism is a must when you live on a remote farm and have to keep the ball rolling without much outside help.

[pwa]

I think the Cymros of Gwynedd and Brechfashire are more Welsh than people of the Valleys who dinnae speak Welsh
Maybe both groups would not like being described as English or half English

Cugel, Debs, pwa are half English, half Welsh, I assert (do they agree?)

That is a view of what being Welsh is that Plaid Cymru have been trying to disown for that past couple of decades. It is considered bigoted, a restricted view of what being Welsh means. There is nothing more Welsh than the former coal mining Valleys, even though the language spoken is English. You need to broaden what you think it is to be Welsh.

[Cyril Haearn]

Are Blaenau Ffestiniog and Treorchy both 100% Welsh, do you think?
Are there any Italian ice-cream parlours in the Gogledd/North? Whatabout the people of Italian origin born in the Valleys, are they 100% Welsh plus x% Italian?

[Cunobelin]

Reminds me of Bosham, there is a tidal shore with big signs warning that it is tidal...
<SNIP>

Are these leavers or remainers?

Both they Leave the car, and it Remains in the water

[pwa]

Are Blaenau Ffestiniog and Treorchy both 100% Welsh, do you think?
Are there any Italian ice-cream parlours in the Gogledd/North? Whatabout the people of Italian origin born in the Valleys, are they 100% Welsh plus x% Italian?

I suppose the bottom line must be, if you have been there long enough and you feel yourself to be Welsh, you are Welsh. The Italian Welsh thing is a good example. For those who don't know, in the South Wales former coal mining communities you will often see cafes and ice cream parlours with Italian names. They originate from an early Twentieth Century influx of Italians, and they are very much appreciated and celebrated as a branch of Welshness. I have heard Italian Welsh people talk about their Italian heritage whilst also being proud of their Welshness. Being Welsh is a much broader thing than being part of a Welsh speaking community. That is just one variety of Welsh.

[Cunobelin]

interesting document on how the Billions of EU funding received by Wales is to be replaced by the UK

[merseymouth]

Hi there, What a mess we get in over origins? Nationality is bad enough with Dual, Triple, Quad Nationality holders, but trying to pin down origin is beyond salvation!
As someone who has some interest in the Family Tree I understand it ain't simple, bit on the lines of a dog born in a stable will never be a horse!
Both my wife & I have the common mix like Heinz, so even going back a two or three generations throws up the mongrel tag. My wife's parents were born in Wales, one north one south, but both of them had mixed parentage, one GPa was born in Ireland, the other GMa was English, so already purity is lost? My mix started a generation earlier, but mixed it is. (Irish, Welsh, English) That is based on place of birth.
So SWMBO was born in Rhyl, where most of the cafe owners were of Greek extraction, with some Italians thrown in, but the children of those folk who went to school with my wife were all born in Wales. So were they Welsh or Greek/Italian? You tell me.
When it comes to the Rugby 6 Nations my daughter insists on being English, I am compelled by her to be Irish, the wife doesn't care as long as they get the ruddy stuff over with!
Regarding Welsh speakers in Cymru, a good mate of mine was from the extreme west of Wales. His father was pure Welsh, his mother was English but spoke Welsh fluently. She spoke English only in his pre-school years, which came as a shock when first day at school he found if Welsh only, poor confused soul. He took up Welsh with ease to the point where he always thought in Welsh, with rapid translation when needed.
When he did Uni he met a Scouse Lass, married and settled down in North East Wales, bordering England , Chester area.
So she spoke English first, he thought Welsh first, which got worse because the television reception where they lived was S4C & Telly Welly!
So pragmatic man he was he just put the English Sub-Titles on the Electric Goldfish Bowl for her .
Even 50 years later living in an English dominated area he still had to mentally translate into English, as listened to English speech, switched it to Welsh to work out his response, they put his response into English .
Simple task working out origins isn't it? TTFN MM

[Psamathe]

Is anybody surprised the Labour Party Conference is turning into a slow motion car crash. Whilst the Conservatives have massive divisions, I suspect the their party conference will be better managed to present an image acceptable to the electorate - no Union Block Votes, no plots and back-stabbing, fairly clear policy (and those that disagree with be quiet for fear of being purged), etc. Or at least the disagreements will be well hidden behind closed doors.

But it will be interesting to see as with such strong feelings you can never be sure.

One aspect I find quite unbelievable about Corbyn's policy of "fence sitting" is that they tried that in the recent European Parliament elections and it was a disaster for them, yet Corbyn blindly pursues the same again. And it's sounding like the vote for the NEC "stitch-up" vs the membership's wishes will become a vote of loyalty to Corbyn and decided by the Unions' block vote.
I think Labour's Brexit policy problems come from that Crbyn really does not like the EU (primarily because it prevents state aid for failing industries). A strong indication of this reported yesterday

Corbyn suggests UK could be better off after Brexit if deal is right

Ian

[kwackers]

Is anybody surprised the Labour Party Conference is turning into a slow motion car crash. Whilst the Conservatives have massive divisions, I suspect the their party conference will be better managed to present an image acceptable to the electorate - no Union Block Votes, no plots and back-stabbing, fairly clear policy (and those that disagree with be quiet for fear of being purged), etc. Or at least the disagreements will be well hidden behind closed doors.

Loads of stuff about the tories but it just dies a death, there's a vested interest in making Labour look bad so anything and everything remotely negative is played out in such a way to maximise the damage.
If it's the Tory party then it's brief news in the political section before quietly fading away, I'm frequently surprised by how quickly stuff fades away about the Tory party.
Labour antisemitism is a boiling cauldron probably mentioned daily in one rag or the other, they're all at it and it's shocking.
Tory anti-Islamism, you could be forgiven for thinking Boris's remarks on clothing was the sum total.
(As an aside I'm still no wiser after all this time of what Labours antisemitism actually is, as in who said/printed or implied what to whom).

In some ways the real problem with Corbyn is he's too principled. He won't come out and say what he thinks because he probably believes the choice should be up to the members and so his choice is irrelevant and at the same time doesn't want folk reading his preferences as labour policy.

What he needs to do is take a leaf out of the tory party and lie through his teeth, tell the voters what they want to hear.

[Psamathe]

Is anybody surprised the Labour Party Conference is turning into a slow motion car crash. Whilst the Conservatives have massive divisions, I suspect the their party conference will be better managed to present an image acceptable to the electorate - no Union Block Votes, no plots and back-stabbing, fairly clear policy (and those that disagree with be quiet for fear of being purged), etc. Or at least the disagreements will be well hidden behind closed doors.

......
In some ways the real problem with Corbyn is he's too principled. He won't come out and say what he thinks because he probably believes the choice should be up to the members and so his choice is irrelevant and at the same time doesn't want folk reading his preferences as labour policy.

What he needs to do is take a leaf out of the tory party and lie through his teeth, tell the voters what they want to hear.

I see nothing wrong with Corbyn coming out and saying "I believe ... but recognise others think differently". But what he's doing is fence sitting. To me it's obvious he does not want the UK to be an EU member state (I guess mainly because he wants to be able to provide state aid to failing industries - not allowed under EU). But he can't say it and instead does a pathetic attempt at campaigning that is so feeble as to show he does not believe in what he's almost campaigning for. Nobody knows what he's seeking so were he elected nobody would confidence about what he might decide in the absence of a public vote.

But I think the Conference Car Crash we're watching is more to do with Corbyn being ineffectual and just allowing it to happen. E.g. The attempt to get rid of Watson is now being reported as having been more widely agreed with before the NEC meeting and that Lansman is just being hung-out-to-dry taking the blame for what was a bad idea. Somebody "leading" would have recognised it would turn into a disaster and stopped it happening before it happened - not something particularly crucial for Labor (having or not having a deputy leader and it was always obvious it was about getting rid of Watson 'cos he disagreed with Corbyn).

Ian

[Oldjohnw]

Corbyn was always meant to be a troublesome backbencher, frequently voting against even a Labour Government. He was a permanent rebel.

He now, unexpectedly, is party leader. Not of some minor party (althtough Labour might well be on the way to minority status) but with an eye on being PM. He needs and expects the sort of loyalty he would never have given. In such a role he is, it seems to me, completely out of his depth. I like his ideas of social justice but as a party leader and PM in waiting he is hapless and hopless

[Vorpal]

So... back in May, Thomas Cook warned that Brexit was causing them some difficulties. They closed some offices, cut some jobs, and took other mitigating actions.
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-48292318

Now, of course, they have collapsed, meaning 600,000 travellers affected, 150,000 British stranded abroad, and 9000 jobs lost.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/li ... ve-updates

The government has defended its decision not to give Thomas Cook a £250m bailout, arguing that it would create a ‘morale hazard’. But in Germany, Thomas Cook’s own airline, Condor, is seeking financial aid to keep flying.

I guess 9,000 people who've just lost their jobs don't have a morale hazard?