** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

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Cugel
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Cugel » 19 Oct 2019, 10:23pm

661-Pete wrote:
Spinners wrote:Are you being serious? It's Parliament who are preventing the democratic will of the people (i.e. the result of the 2016 Referendum) being carried out.
(snip) What's wrong with asking again - now that we know more about it?


What's wrong with it is that the bad winners may have to become bad losers. :-)

Personally I hope we never have a referendum ever again, about anything. Brexit has seriously undermined the faith that many had in democracy as a good form of government. It seemed to easily turn into mob rule followed by the emergence of any number of would-be tyrants. ANd a couple of actual tyrants.

Perhaps MPs will manage to discover sufficient in their number to force Parliament to act in the National Interest rather than allow one or another of the tyrants to retain power and ruin the country in pursuit of a lust for money and power whilst justifying the immense damage done in terms of their nasty New Tory Trot neolib claptrap?

Cugel

Psamathe
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Psamathe » 19 Oct 2019, 11:37pm

Cunobelin wrote:Apparently Boris is sending” the letter” by midnight (BST)

But is refusing to sign it!

It doesn’t actually need a signature to be a legal document, so merely more childish petulance

I saw reported he's also sent a 2nd letter. And this is the man we trust as head of our government.

Still there is one thing Cameron has got right (at last)
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/david-cameron-boris-johnson-brexit-deal-greasy-pig-harrogate-a9161176.html wrote: David Cameron calls Boris Johnson a ‘greased piglet’ before backing Brexit deal

Ian

reohn2
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby reohn2 » 20 Oct 2019, 12:04am

Psamathe wrote:.......Still there is one thing Cameron has got right (at last)
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/david-cameron-boris-johnson-brexit-deal-greasy-pig-harrogate-a9161176.html wrote: David Cameron calls Boris Johnson a ‘greased piglet’ before backing Brexit deal

Ian

I disagree with Cameron on this(never agreed with him on anything else so why start now :wink: ).
BoJo is the fully grown greasy pig who's had his nose in the trough since he was born like his father before him,and so is Cameron FTM.
Greasy fat pigs the lot of them.



PS,thinks...... ......apologies to the porcine element of creation as they're far more intelligent and with cleaner morals.....
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Mick F
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Mick F » 20 Oct 2019, 6:50am

Psamathe wrote:
Mick F wrote:
661-Pete wrote:What's wrong with asking again - now that we know more about it?
Keep asking, until you get the right answer perhaps?

Do we know more about it?
Would you vote differently now?

We know that the £350m a week was a complete lie
We know that the EU was never going to take away our veto over new joining states (e.g. Turkey)
We know that we could never be obliged to join in any EU army
We know that the EU is not preventing us protecting polar bears
We know that "they don't need us more than we need them"
We know that the Irish Border is a major issue (not as dismissed by all Leave campaigns)
etc., etc., etc.

Ian
We knew all that before! :shock:
Mick F. Cornwall

Oldjohnw
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Oldjohnw » 20 Oct 2019, 7:17am

It seems to me that Parliament is actually doing its job which is to apply scrutiny to bills and hold the executive to account. Even the smallest bit of legislation normally gets line by line scrutiny in committee. But with Brexit the government keeps things secret until the day before or even the day of the vote so as to steamroller it through without scrutiny. They've done this from the start.

Democracy would have recognised that the 'losers' were a large minority and had to be considered and May would right at the start tried to gain consensus. Instead she tried at the very beginning to sideline Parliament. Time and again the courts have had to be involved for parliament to have any discussion. And the government is, it appears, still at it.
John

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Bonefishblues
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Bonefishblues » 20 Oct 2019, 7:48am

reohn2 wrote:
Psamathe wrote:.......Still there is one thing Cameron has got right (at last)
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/david-cameron-boris-johnson-brexit-deal-greasy-pig-harrogate-a9161176.html wrote: David Cameron calls Boris Johnson a ‘greased piglet’ before backing Brexit deal

Ian

I disagree with Cameron on this(never agreed with him on anything else so why start now :wink: ).
BoJo is the fully grown greasy pig who's had his nose in the trough since he was born like his father before him,and so is Cameron FTM.
Greasy fat pigs the lot of them.



PS,thinks...... ......apologies to the porcine element of creation as they're far more intelligent and with cleaner morals.....

I don't mind Stanley, and t'other two are fully paid up members of the human race. Rachel was hilarious on hignfy on Friday.

merseymouth
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby merseymouth » 20 Oct 2019, 8:57am

Hi Folk :) , So if the group of Balkan countries get the right to join the E.U. that will make that august body a better club to belong to?
With more begging bowl states surely the problems posed to the nett contribution countries will be that much greater, which with so few members paying the true cost of membership will become even more a toxic pool!
Add the problems posed by that other country which would like to be a member, Turkey, then the "Balkan's Tinderbox" will be revisited.
Ignore the lessons of history at one's peril! MM

Oldjohnw
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Oldjohnw » 20 Oct 2019, 9:04am

merseymouth wrote:Hi Folk :) , So if the group of Balkan countries get the right to join the E.U. that will make that august body a better club to belong to?
With more begging bowl states surely the problems posed to the nett contribution countries will be that much greater, which with so few members paying the true cost of membership will become even more a toxic pool!
Add the problems posed by that other country which would like to be a member, Turkey, then the "Balkan's Tinderbox" will be revisited.
Ignore the lessons of history at one's peril! MM


Turkey has as much chance of joining as does Iran. And assisting poorer neighbours is called being part of the human race. Ignore that lesson from history at your peril!
John

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roubaixtuesday
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby roubaixtuesday » 20 Oct 2019, 9:04am

merseymouth wrote:Ignore the lessons of history at one's peril! MM


Yes indeed. Xenophobic and nationalistic projects never end well.

This one hasn't even managed to start well, mind.

Bonefishblues
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Bonefishblues » 20 Oct 2019, 9:05am

@MM Turkey is not going to be a member any time soon, or later, for that matter.

Ignoring your use of begging bowl, which is offensive, it wasn't very long ago that we had genocide in the Balkans. Might it be rather desirable to have those states inside the tent - or maybe it doesn't matter because we're not involved?

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661-Pete
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby 661-Pete » 20 Oct 2019, 9:24am

Psamathe wrote:Still there is one thing Cameron has got right (at last)
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/david-cameron-boris-johnson-brexit-deal-greasy-pig-harrogate-a9161176.html wrote: David Cameron calls Boris Johnson a ‘greased piglet’ before backing Brexit deal

Ian
I saw that story on Friday and had time to prepare my poster for Saturday's march accordingly (a bit the worse for wear - we got caught in the rain...):
IMG_1310_piglet.jpg

Mind you - Cammers wants to be a bit careful about exploiting the 'pig' metaphor. Some of us have long memories!
Suppose that this room is a lift. The support breaks and down we go with ever-increasing velocity.
Let us pass the time by performing physical experiments...
--- Arthur Eddington (creator of the Eddington Number).

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Audax67
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Audax67 » 20 Oct 2019, 9:32am

Oldjohnw wrote:
merseymouth wrote:Hi Folk :) , So if the group of Balkan countries get the right to join the E.U. that will make that august body a better club to belong to?
With more begging bowl states surely the problems posed to the nett contribution countries will be that much greater, which with so few members paying the true cost of membership will become even more a toxic pool!
Add the problems posed by that other country which would like to be a member, Turkey, then the "Balkan's Tinderbox" will be revisited.
Ignore the lessons of history at one's peril! MM


Turkey has as much chance of joining as does Iran. And assisting poorer neighbours is called being part of the human race. Ignore that lesson from history at your peril!


The EU is still recovering from taking on the old Iron Curtain countries when Communism collapsed. We're still carrying Greece as well, come to that.

You need to remember that the EU isn't a club, as it's fashionable to say in the UK, but an economic arrangement formed to avoid internal conflict and promote the interests of all member countries.* Assisting poorer neighbours is only of interest when it is compatible with those aims. We took on the USSR's old buffer states not for their benefit but to keep them from going back to being Russia's pawns. It was in our interest then, but it gave our economy a right whack in the back of the knees.

BTW, Greece lied to get in just as the UK leavers lied to get out. Do you reckon they wouldn't veto Turkey getting in?

* actually, this was pretty well the original definition of a club: a bunch of people who banded together to have greater financial clout. However, these days it's more like a bunch of folk who like to ride bikes together.
Have we got time for another cuppa?

Psamathe
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Psamathe » 20 Oct 2019, 9:36am

Mick F wrote:
Psamathe wrote:
Mick F wrote:Keep asking, until you get the right answer perhaps?

Do we know more about it?
Would you vote differently now?

We know that the £350m a week was a complete lie
We know that the EU was never going to take away our veto over new joining states (e.g. Turkey)
We know that we could never be obliged to join in any EU army
We know that the EU is not preventing us protecting polar bears
We know that "they don't need us more than we need them"
We know that the Irish Border is a major issue (not as dismissed by all Leave campaigns)
etc., etc., etc.

Ian
We knew all that before! :shock:

Many didn't and still don't. They saw it on the side of a bus, in a poster and/or on campaign fliers and they believed it.
It's so bad many still believe the lies presented by the Leave campaigns e.g
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/vote-leave-brexit-lies-eu-pay-money-remain-poll-boris-johnson-a8603646.html wrote:British public still believe Vote Leave ‘£350million a week to EU’ myth from Brexit referendum
...
Nearly half of the British public still believe the false claim from the Brexit referendum that the UK sends £350m a week to the EU, despite persistent attempts to debunk the myth.
...
A recent report by the Migration Advisory Committee concluded that EU migrants contribute £4.7bn more in taxes than they use in welfare benefits and services – but the King’s College London study found that only 29 per cent of the public correctly believed this, dropping to 16 per cent of Leave voters.

Thirty nine per cent of the public and 53 per cent of Leave supporters believe that European immigration has decreased the quality of healthcare in the UK, despite evidence from the official report showing this was not the case, and that a shortage of EU healthcare workers is actually increasing challenges for the NHS.

I think it likely that people still believing the Leave Lies is a significant contribution to the split in our society caused by the Etom alumni.

Ian

Bonefishblues
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Bonefishblues » 20 Oct 2019, 9:38am

Audax67 wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:
merseymouth wrote:Hi Folk :) , So if the group of Balkan countries get the right to join the E.U. that will make that august body a better club to belong to?
With more begging bowl states surely the problems posed to the nett contribution countries will be that much greater, which with so few members paying the true cost of membership will become even more a toxic pool!
Add the problems posed by that other country which would like to be a member, Turkey, then the "Balkan's Tinderbox" will be revisited.
Ignore the lessons of history at one's peril! MM


Turkey has as much chance of joining as does Iran. And assisting poorer neighbours is called being part of the human race. Ignore that lesson from history at your peril!


The EU is still recovering from taking on the old Iron Curtain countries when Communism collapsed. We're still carrying Greece as well, come to that.

You need to remember that the EU isn't a club, as it's fashionable to say in the UK, but an economic arrangement formed to avoid internal conflict and promote the interests of all member countries.* Assisting poorer neighbours is only of interest when it is compatible with those aims. We took on the USSR's old buffer states not for their benefit but to keep them from going back to being Russia's pawns. It was in our interest then, but it gave our economy a right whack in the back of the knees.

BTW, Greece lied to get in just as the UK leavers lied to get out. Do you reckon they wouldn't veto Turkey getting in?

* actually, this was pretty well the original definition of a club: a bunch of people who banded together to have greater financial clout. However, these days it's more like a bunch of folk who like to ride bikes together.

Simplistic and slanted analysis of Greece is simplistic :lol:

kwackers
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby kwackers » 20 Oct 2019, 9:44am

I see BoJo sent the letter but didn't sign it.

Now I must admit I'm childish enough to probably do the same thing but then I wouldn't make a great PM - I'm much more dictator material.

But IMO such childishness from our highest representative doesn't do us many favours when viewed from outside the country.
There was a time when the UK was looked up to, now we're just a comedy country, a parody to have poked fun at.
I doubt we'll ever recover from that.