** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

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mercalia
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mercalia » 21 Oct 2019, 5:10pm

Voters have also been asked what they would do if a referendum offered a choice between leaving the EU on the terms proposed by Mr Johnson or remaining in the EU.

Their responses reinforce the impression Mr Johnson's deal has divided the country.

Both Opinium and Survation have suggested the outcome of such a ballot would be a tie.

Many Remain supporters appear to believe if Mr Johnson's deal were to be put to a confirmatory vote, a majority would vote to stay in the EU.

However, it seems such an outcome is by no means guaranteed.

But, equally, the deal does not appear to provide a promising foundation for bringing the country together, as the prime minister argues it would.

So far, at least, he has won over too few Remain voters for that to be the case.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-50123223

so things are worse than they were on 2016? Whats the sensible course of action? plough ahead against a truly divided country? that cant be sensible? & 50% of the country would have a right to be very very very angry indeed?

merseymouth
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby merseymouth » 21 Oct 2019, 5:43pm

Hi Debs :) , I don't really know how to say this without the "Language Police" jumping all over me?
But the dreadful concoction liquid that is marketed in the U.K. as "Stella Artois" is almost universally known as "W*fe B*at*r", ouch!
A cocktail of antisocial behaviour inducing chemicals purporting to be Beer! You won't get me even using it to put out a fire.
I think that the Belgians will view the liquid as a form of Brexit Mouthwash, spit it out and think of the U.K. :lol: TTFN MM

francovendee
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby francovendee » 21 Oct 2019, 5:45pm

mjr wrote:
roubaixtuesday wrote:
al_yrpal wrote:So many remain people are so badly informed, twist truths or are delusional.. It doesn't actually matter though. We'll get there in the end .

Al


Well you're certainly right there Al.

On truth and delusion, where exactly fo you believe I live, and why?

And why does it matter?

Because traitors who have left UK borders for too long have no right to vote and must accept whatever patriotic Brexiters do to them, even if it's based on lies like £350m/week for the NHS, Turkey joining the EU, open borders with Syria and Iraq, or that the EU restricts trade more than freeing it. There are currently 53 Free Trade Agreements, some covering multiple countries. There are some restrictions, such as not selling arms to North Korea or Iran, but the UK would probably do that anyway (else face sanctions from the US) and why does Al object to that?

Who are these traitors you mention?

Stradageek
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Stradageek » 21 Oct 2019, 5:49pm

mercalia wrote: so things are worse than they were on 2016? Whats the sensible course of action? plough ahead against a truly divided country? that cant be sensible? & 50% of the country would have a right to be very very very angry indeed?

Wisest words I heard were from Alan Johnson (and this is from me a staunch remainer) - paraphrased, I think he basically said:

The country is horribly divided so let's go with the original vote and leave in order to calm everyone down, and let's employ Teresa May's deal because it drops us out of all the bits most people have a beef about, court of human rights, CAP, fisheries etc but leaves us in the customs union protecting trade and workers.

Not my first choice but there's a logic to it

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Cunobelin
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Cunobelin » 21 Oct 2019, 5:50pm

francovendee wrote:
mjr wrote:
roubaixtuesday wrote:
Well you're certainly right there Al.

On truth and delusion, where exactly fo you believe I live, and why?

And why does it matter?

Because traitors who have left UK borders for too long have no right to vote and must accept whatever patriotic Brexiters do to them, even if it's based on lies like £350m/week for the NHS, Turkey joining the EU, open borders with Syria and Iraq, or that the EU restricts trade more than freeing it. There are currently 53 Free Trade Agreements, some covering multiple countries. There are some restrictions, such as not selling arms to North Korea or Iran, but the UK would probably do that anyway (else face sanctions from the US) and why does Al object to that?

Who are these traitors you mention?



"Traitor"... defined as anyone who is not rabidly pro-brexit

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mjr
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mjr » 21 Oct 2019, 5:56pm

mercalia wrote:However, it seems such an outcome is by no means guaranteed.

If the outcome of a vote is guaranteed, that's not a democracy, is it?

mercalia wrote: so things are worse than they were on 2016? Whats the sensible course of action? plough ahead against a truly divided country? that cant be sensible? & 50% of the country would have a right to be very very very angry indeed?

I can see at least two sensible courses of action:

1. we have a confirmation referendum that is binding (not a pseudo-advisory one like last time to dodge certain laws) and between two real defined ways forwards (not reality versus all fantasies like last time), with ideally a constitutional convention convened to examine the choice, with other elected members banned from campaigning so they don't prejudice their future votes on implementing the result or abuse their posts for campaign purposes, to divine the facts about the choice and slap down the likes of the lying red bus;

2. there's some sort of compromise Brexit that recognises that the 2016 result was so close to half and half as makes no odds. I'm not sure what that is or how we get there now the Davies, Raab, May and Johnson have cocked up the negotiations. I'll probably never be completely happy with any sort of Brexit, but it'll needs to be much softer than the punishing "hard Brexit"s that May and Johnson have tried to force through contrary to what was promised by Leave campaign leaders ("absolutely nobody is talking about threatening our place in the single market" - Daniel Hannan, "the Norway option looks the best" - Arron Banks), or the shame of the UK defaulting and crashing out.

Stradageek wrote:Wisest words I heard were from Alan Johnson (and this is from me a staunch remainer) - paraphrased, I think he basically said:

The country is horribly divided so let's go with the original vote and leave in order to calm everyone down, and let's employ Teresa May's deal because it drops us out of all the bits most people have a beef about, court of human rights, CAP, fisheries etc but leaves us in the customs union protecting trade and workers.

Not my first choice but there's a logic to it

Except there isn't because the ECHR is part of the 1949 Treaty of London's Council of Europe, not the EU treaties, so isn't affected directly by leaving; and Gove has pledged to continue the current fisheries policies; so there isn't much logic to it and I hope you've not remembered Alan Johnson's words correctly there because an ex-minister really ought to know that!
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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Oldjohnw
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Oldjohnw » 21 Oct 2019, 6:02pm

A reminder: most cases which come before the ECHR are Russia based. Russia, is, of course, a member.

I do believe that when someone throws in he word "traitor" they should define it.

I won't hold my breath, though. In the same way that I won't hold my breath waiting to learn which laws are imposed on us.
John

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francovendee
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby francovendee » 21 Oct 2019, 6:10pm

Cunobelin wrote:
francovendee wrote:
mjr wrote:Because traitors who have left UK borders for too long have no right to vote and must accept whatever patriotic Brexiters do to them, even if it's based on lies like £350m/week for the NHS, Turkey joining the EU, open borders with Syria and Iraq, or that the EU restricts trade more than freeing it. There are currently 53 Free Trade Agreements, some covering multiple countries. There are some restrictions, such as not selling arms to North Korea or Iran, but the UK would probably do that anyway (else face sanctions from the US) and why does Al object to that?

Who are these traitors you mention?



"Traitor"... defined as anyone who is not rabidly pro-brexit

Seems like most on here are traitors! I'm pleased I'm in good company :D

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Spinners
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Spinners » 21 Oct 2019, 6:20pm

NUKe wrote:to all the Brexiters (remainers need not reply, we don't want your negativity)

What are you most looking forward to when we leave?



1. A General Election.

2. Seeing Laura Kuenssberg take a well-deserved holiday.

3. Seeing wee Jimmie Krankie (aka Nicola Sturgeon) go home tae think again.
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PBP Ancien (2007)

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661-Pete
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby 661-Pete » 21 Oct 2019, 6:31pm

merseymouth wrote:Hi Debs :) , I don't really know how to say this without the "Language Police" jumping all over me?
But the dreadful concoction liquid that is marketed in the U.K. as "Stella Artois" is almost universally known as "W*fe B*at*r", ouch!
A cocktail of antisocial behaviour inducing chemicals purporting to be Beer! You won't get me even using it to put out a fire.
I think that the Belgians will view the liquid as a form of Brexit Mouthwash, spit it out and think of the U.K. :lol: TTFN MM
I am glad to be corrected on this issue. Thanks.

I very seldom drink, but if I do a pint (nowadays more like a half :( ) of Real Ale goes down a treat. Our local, Harveys of Lewes, is not too bad.

There are some things that come better from Britain - but real German lager is very good...
Suppose that this room is a lift. The support breaks and down we go with ever-increasing velocity.
Let us pass the time by performing physical experiments...
--- Arthur Eddington (creator of the Eddington Number).

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mjr
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mjr » 21 Oct 2019, 6:36pm

661-Pete wrote:
merseymouth wrote:Hi Debs :) , I don't really know how to say this without the "Language Police" jumping all over me?
But the dreadful concoction liquid that is marketed in the U.K. as "Stella Artois" is almost universally known as "W*fe B*at*r", ouch!
A cocktail of antisocial behaviour inducing chemicals purporting to be Beer! You won't get me even using it to put out a fire.
I think that the Belgians will view the liquid as a form of Brexit Mouthwash, spit it out and think of the U.K. :lol: TTFN MM
I am glad to be corrected on this issue. Thanks.

I very seldom drink, but if I do a pint (nowadays more like a half :( ) of Real Ale goes down a treat. Our local, Harveys of Lewes, is not too bad.

There are some things that come better from Britain - but real German lager is very good...

There's more history of how Whitbread Stella came to be known as w!febe@ter at https://brussels-express.eu/why-was-ste ... n-britain/

The Leuven original seems completely almost completely unlike the Whitbread version. Also, it seems not to travel well even in Belgium, tasting less good the further from Leuven we got!

Does anyone here know how the various Brexits are expected to impact the Real Ale market? Will some go to the wall if exporting becomes too difficult? Will UK prices go up or down? How much beer do we make, import and export? :)
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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mercalia
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mercalia » 21 Oct 2019, 7:00pm

merseymouth wrote:Hi Debs :) , I don't really know how to say this without the "Language Police" jumping all over me?
But the dreadful concoction liquid that is marketed in the U.K. as "Stella Artois" is almost universally known as "W*fe B*at*r", ouch!
A cocktail of antisocial behaviour inducing chemicals purporting to be Beer! You won't get me even using it to put out a fire.
I think that the Belgians will view the liquid as a form of Brexit Mouthwash, spit it out and think of the U.K. :lol: TTFN MM



well just to wind you up :wink:



some one must like it? Dont they drink in its home country or just "for export only" :lol:

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mjr
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mjr » 21 Oct 2019, 7:25pm

mercalia wrote:
merseymouth wrote:But the dreadful concoction liquid that is marketed in the U.K. as "Stella Artois" is almost universally known as "W*fe B*at*r", ouch!
A cocktail of antisocial behaviour inducing chemicals purporting to be Beer! You won't get me even using it to put out a fire.
I think that the Belgians will view the liquid as a form of Brexit Mouthwash, spit it out and think of the U.K.



well just to wind you up :wink:


What a strange advert. Speaking French, very hilly, with what looks like a Lisbon tram at one point - to advertise a version of a Flemish beer. As you may know, neither hills nor speaking French are very popular in much of Flanders ;)

some one must like it? Dont they drink in its home country or just "for export only" :lol:

I think Whitbread Stella is not drunk much in Belgium. I think Belgian Stella is exported but not to the UK much.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.

Oldjohnw
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Oldjohnw » 21 Oct 2019, 7:56pm

Whatever happened to Newcassell Broon?
John

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Debs
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Debs » 21 Oct 2019, 8:41pm

mercalia wrote:Voters have also been asked what they would do if a referendum offered a choice between leaving the EU on the terms proposed by Mr Johnson or remaining in the EU.

Their responses reinforce the impression Mr Johnson's deal has divided the country.

Both Opinium and Survation have suggested the outcome of such a ballot would be a tie.

Many Remain supporters appear to believe if Mr Johnson's deal were to be put to a confirmatory vote, a majority would vote to stay in the EU.

However, it seems such an outcome is by no means guaranteed.

But, equally, the deal does not appear to provide a promising foundation for bringing the country together, as the prime minister argues it would.

So far, at least, he has won over too few Remain voters for that to be the case.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-50123223

so things are worse than they were on 2016? Whats the sensible course of action? plough ahead against a truly divided country? that cant be sensible? & 50% of the country would have a right to be very very very angry indeed?


The only way to find out is to have a conformationally referendum.
I don't believe the split is anyway near 50/50, more like two thirds of us would rather remain. The problem is caused by a significant minority of a few million Brexitears who are of a loud and boisterous disposition whist Remainers form a far more civilised and quiet majority.

Also, Remainers all have the same end game in mind - for the UK to remain a member of the EU, we carry on business as usual.

On the other hand the unknown land of Brexit UK is a ongoing illusive picture of varying awfulness to look at but which has forged many differing types and groups of Brexitear, and hypothetically speaking whatever Brexit the UK may end up with will become very unsatisfactory for the Brexitears that wanted a different type of Brexit deal.... but if we continue along with the hypothesis by saying there are mainly three groups with May Deal, Johnson Deal, and No-Deal, and giving this the law of thirds; 17.4m less the 1 million who have died it looks like just over 5 million for each group, so it's highly probably that two thirds of Brexitears will be unhappy with any given immediate outcome of whichever Brexit we end up with.

[ Throw in a bit more time when the hardship of Brexit bites and this figure will fall even lower! ]

So a happy outcome of Brexit can only result with not many more than 5 million UK peoples [ and only for a short time-span ]
however a happy outcome for Remaining would result in up to ten times that many :D