** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Use this board for general non-cycling-related chat, or to introduce yourself to the forum.
Oldjohnw
Posts: 2441
Joined: 16 Oct 2018, 4:23am
Location: Northumberland

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Oldjohnw » 15 Nov 2019, 8:47am

al_yrpal wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:
al_yrpal wrote:Well, its our money that we have had to give to the Superstate to distribute to dodgy schemes all over Europe. Sorting the flood damage is an ideal opportunity to get some of it back. Well done Boris! :D

Al


It's not our money. Successive governments, freely elected, agreed to these payments. Just like you can't decide you're not paying your mortgage. The fund is doing exactly what it's meant to do: in a community of nations, when there is need, you help.


All taxes are OUR money, the government and the Superstate dont have any they just spend ours. Get it back... Are you saying we shouldnt apply to squeeze cash out of the EU? I would rather see it spent on our flood victims than the Brussels/Strasbourg gravy train and Junkers wine fridge, subsidising inefficient German strip farmers, cheating Italians and various other dodgy EU causes like legislating against our industries.

Al


I fear Al still believes that poster on the side of the bus. Of course what Al and his pals - et al if you like - miss is that in due course when we decide to reapply to rejoin the EU we will no longer get the Thatcher rebate. And by then we'll no longer be a wealthy country. So we'll be pretty desperate for handouts.
John

Cycling and recycling

reohn2
Posts: 37047
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby reohn2 » 15 Nov 2019, 9:25am

al_yrpal wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:
al_yrpal wrote:Well, its our money that we have had to give to the Superstate to distribute to dodgy schemes all over Europe. Sorting the flood damage is an ideal opportunity to get some of it back. Well done Boris! :D

Al


It's not our money. Successive governments, freely elected, agreed to these payments. Just like you can't decide you're not paying your mortgage. The fund is doing exactly what it's meant to do: in a community of nations, when there is need, you help.


All taxes are OUR money, the government and the Superstate dont have any they just spend ours. Get it back... Are you saying we shouldnt apply to squeeze cash out of the EU? I would rather see it spent on our flood victims than the Brussels/Strasbourg gravy train and Junkers wine fridge, subsidising inefficient German strip farmers, cheating Italians and various other dodgy EU causes like legislating against our industries.

Al

Oh dear,you're doing it again :lol: :lol: :lol:
-----------------------------------------------------------
I cycle therefore I am.

Vorpal
Moderator
Posts: 17564
Joined: 19 Jan 2009, 3:34pm
Location: Not there ;)

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Vorpal » 15 Nov 2019, 1:50pm

al_yrpal wrote:
All taxes are OUR money, the government and the Superstate dont have any they just spend ours. Get it back... Are you saying we shouldnt apply to squeeze cash out of the EU? I would rather see it spent on our flood victims than the Brussels/Strasbourg gravy train and Junkers wine fridge, subsidising inefficient German strip farmers, cheating Italians and various other dodgy EU causes like legislating against our industries.

Al

Taxes are what we pay for community resources such as health care, roads, rail and airports, etc. In some cases 'community' is wider than the UK, and includes things like ship navigation and shipping standards, air freight and passenger carriage, trade agreements, tax and health care exchange agreement with other countries, mutual defense treaties, etc. The EU just handles those things as a bloc, rather than country by country. What the UK pays for that and the accompanying standards, and freedom of movement may, or may not be good value for money. I come in slightly on the side of it is good value for money. Partly because I value freedom of movement, and partly because I have worked with and on EC standards, and I generally think that the result is good, even if it can be a bureaucratic nightmare to get there.

However, the UK is currently paying for Brexit without doing it. Most of the estimates published in the media say that the UK has already paid something like £78 billion (or thousand million, if you prefer). The most conservative estimate I have seen was in the Harvard Business Review, and that suggested it was only £44 billion (= £44 thousand million).

Is that good value for money? How much is Brexit worth?
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

PDQ Mobile
Posts: 3260
Joined: 2 Aug 2015, 4:40pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby PDQ Mobile » 15 Nov 2019, 2:09pm

Vorpal wrote:Taxes are what we pay for community resources such as health care, roads, rail and airports, etc. In some cases 'community' is wider than the UK, and includes things like ship navigation and shipping standards, air freight and passenger carriage, trade agreements, tax and health care exchange agreement with other countries, mutual defense treaties, etc. The EU just handles those things as a bloc, rather than country by country. What the UK pays for that and the accompanying standards, and freedom of movement may, or may not be good value for money. I come in slightly on the side of it is good value for money. Partly because I value freedom of movement, and partly because I have worked with and on EC standards, and I generally think that the result is good, even if it can be a bureaucratic nightmare to get there.

However, the UK is currently paying for Brexit without doing it. Most of the estimates published in the media say that the UK has already paid something like £78 billion (or thousand million, if you prefer). The most conservative estimate I have seen was in the Harvard Business Review, and that suggested it was only £44 billion (= £44 thousand million).

Is that good value for money? How much is Brexit worth?

I agree with this assessment.
I would add that I personally don't think that if UK Govt regained sole control (if that even exists in such a complex area), that the spending of such revenue would be any better value for money.
Given the number of selfish outright chancers and crooks in Downing Street at present, I would suggest probably quite the opposite.
So in that sense I trust the EU more.
I feel it is more subject to checks and balances though its better democratic structure (PR) and diverse make up.

User avatar
al_yrpal
Posts: 8030
Joined: 25 Jul 2007, 9:47pm
Location: Cully
Contact:

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby al_yrpal » 15 Nov 2019, 2:21pm

Its such a shame that so many people have such low confidence in our ability to govern ourselves. But its principally them that want to remain as puppets of the EU.

Anyway.. onwards and upwards

Al
Touring on a bicycle is a great way to explore and appreciate the countryside and towns you pass through. What do you do to make a difference?

Psamathe
Posts: 10607
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Psamathe » 15 Nov 2019, 2:23pm

al_yrpal wrote:
All taxes are OUR money, the government and the Superstate dont have any they just spend ours. Get it back... Are you saying we shouldnt apply to squeeze cash out of the EU? I would rather see it spent on our flood victims than the Brussels/Strasbourg gravy train and Junkers wine fridge, subsidising inefficient German strip farmers, cheating Italians and various other dodgy EU causes like legislating against our industries.

Al

Exactly the same e.g. with taxes I pay being given to Scotland. does that make Westminster a "Superstate"? What you are complaining about can apply at many levels and you seem to have applied an arbitrary threshold based on prejudice (dislike of the EU).

Ian

User avatar
al_yrpal
Posts: 8030
Joined: 25 Jul 2007, 9:47pm
Location: Cully
Contact:

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby al_yrpal » 15 Nov 2019, 2:38pm

Yes, a bit like a Scot seeking Independence, no confidence in the UK in their case, same with me and the EU, I have no confidence in it and believe it holds us back.

On another subject I am missing posts from 661pete. Here is his last post viewtopic.php?f=49&t=133246&p=1413973#p1413973 . Sounds like it could be serious.

Hope you are ok Pete, best wishes Al
Touring on a bicycle is a great way to explore and appreciate the countryside and towns you pass through. What do you do to make a difference?

Vorpal
Moderator
Posts: 17564
Joined: 19 Jan 2009, 3:34pm
Location: Not there ;)

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Vorpal » 15 Nov 2019, 2:41pm

al_yrpal wrote:Its such a shame that so many people have such low confidence in our ability to govern ourselves. But its principally them that want to remain as puppets of the EU.

Anyway.. onwards and upwards

Al

How much is Brexit worth? Some folks say it's okay to accept short term hardship to get out of the EU. I understand that, even if I don't subscribe to it. But how much hardship? How many people should be without work? How many cuts to the NHS, and how many roads should go unrepaired to pay for Brexit? How much is it worth?
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

User avatar
al_yrpal
Posts: 8030
Joined: 25 Jul 2007, 9:47pm
Location: Cully
Contact:

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby al_yrpal » 15 Nov 2019, 2:47pm

Vorpal wrote:
al_yrpal wrote:Its such a shame that so many people have such low confidence in our ability to govern ourselves. But its principally them that want to remain as puppets of the EU.

Anyway.. onwards and upwards

Al

How much is Brexit worth? Some folks say it's okay to accept short term hardship to get out of the EU. I understand that, even if I don't subscribe to it. But how much hardship? How many people should be without work? How many cuts to the NHS, and how many roads should go unrepaired to pay for Brexit? How much is it worth?


True only if you believe leaving will leave Britain eventually worse off. Many of us that actually live here and are committed to our country dont... and, there is more than just economics at stake.

Al
Touring on a bicycle is a great way to explore and appreciate the countryside and towns you pass through. What do you do to make a difference?

Vorpal
Moderator
Posts: 17564
Joined: 19 Jan 2009, 3:34pm
Location: Not there ;)

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Vorpal » 15 Nov 2019, 3:31pm

al_yrpal wrote:
Vorpal wrote:
al_yrpal wrote:Its such a shame that so many people have such low confidence in our ability to govern ourselves. But its principally them that want to remain as puppets of the EU.

Anyway.. onwards and upwards

Al

How much is Brexit worth? Some folks say it's okay to accept short term hardship to get out of the EU. I understand that, even if I don't subscribe to it. But how much hardship? How many people should be without work? How many cuts to the NHS, and how many roads should go unrepaired to pay for Brexit? How much is it worth?


True only if you believe leaving will leave Britain eventually worse off. Many of us that actually live here and are committed to our country dont... and, there is more than just economics at stake.

Al
Actually I said 'short term' I think that the evidence that the UK is already worse off is undeniable. Even conservative & pro-Brexit sources are reporting it. https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2019 ... niversary/

I have no doubt that the UK will recover with or without Brexit. It is possible, even likely, that the growth will be faster with Brexit than without it. I'm not sure if the recovery will include Britain's poor. But even if we assume it does, I would still like to know how much hardship is okay in the meanwhile? How much is Brexit worth?
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

User avatar
mjr
Posts: 14462
Joined: 20 Jun 2011, 7:06pm
Location: Norfolk or Somerset, mostly
Contact:

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mjr » 15 Nov 2019, 3:35pm

Rather, I think it's such a shame that so many people here have such low confidence in our ability to hold our own in the EU, to be masters in our own house. But its principally them that want to leave the EU and become puppets of the USA.

Many of us that actually live here and are committed to our country believe this has already weakened the UK... and, yes, there is more than just economics at stake: our freedoms to live, work and trade are at stake. It's a disgrace that some have voted to surrender our freedoms hard won by our ancestors.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.

User avatar
al_yrpal
Posts: 8030
Joined: 25 Jul 2007, 9:47pm
Location: Cully
Contact:

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby al_yrpal » 15 Nov 2019, 4:11pm

As an independent Nation State we will be no one's puppet. Asserting that we will, again demonstrates lack of confidence in Britain.

Al
Touring on a bicycle is a great way to explore and appreciate the countryside and towns you pass through. What do you do to make a difference?

User avatar
mjr
Posts: 14462
Joined: 20 Jun 2011, 7:06pm
Location: Norfolk or Somerset, mostly
Contact:

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mjr » 15 Nov 2019, 4:19pm

No, it demonstrates a lack of confidence in the donkeys leading us.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.

reohn2
Posts: 37047
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby reohn2 » 15 Nov 2019, 4:38pm

al_yrpal wrote:.

On another subject I am missing posts from 661pete. Here is his last post viewtopic.php?f=49&t=133246&p=1413973#p1413973 . Sounds like it could be serious.

Hope you are ok Pete, best wishes Al

I missed that post and was only this morning thinking he'd not posted for a few days,I too hope you're OK Pete?
-----------------------------------------------------------
I cycle therefore I am.

PDQ Mobile
Posts: 3260
Joined: 2 Aug 2015, 4:40pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby PDQ Mobile » 15 Nov 2019, 4:41pm

al_yrpal wrote:Its such a shame that so many people have such low confidence in our ability to govern ourselves. But its principally them that want to remain as puppets of the EU.

Anyway.. onwards and upwards

Al

The patriotic card is a waste of time in my case.
It is a cheap strategy that we have seen all too often from you - when all else fails.
A Cummings type, "take back control" mantra that has stood no scrutiny whatsoever, over more than 1400 pages.

For I am a patriot. Clearly and solidly.
Scars to prove it too.

But it is not a blind narrow patriotism of the sort I think you suggest.

But rather a patriotic belief we can hold our own at any round table -Brussels included.
That we can bring to that or any other table a sensible friendly pragmatic compromise and at times unique inventive solutions.
Compromise is nearly always beneficial.

And the EU by its nature must always search for compromise.
And try regulate against commercial fraud for good measure.
In these areas it has been rather successful; IMV.

Why do you think the Trumps Murdochs and Putin all detest what it stands for so much??
It stands for more transparency in the movement of Capital, for instance.

This is exactly where the present Govt fails so deeply.
Rees Mogg and the ERG are intensely greedy dogmatic extremists, and what's more they are moral bankrupts, peddling drugs and weapons for their own financial gain.
They give not one jot about being patriotic, in its true and wholesome sense but are driven simply by their overwhelming desire to make money.
There are too few controls on what they do domestically, they literally get away with murder.
They have no track record for doing anything socially beneficial to the UK.
To back them is folly. To believe they are patriots is naive.


Stock Markets are also not patriotic, (I put this to you personally Al)- they are, or have now become, a simple tool of those greedy elites.
Without a care about any one country or its people but rather always chasing the profit no matter what negative consequences results.

So save your patriotic Crocodile Tears for someone else, Al.