reohn2 wrote:broadway wrote:BrianFox wrote:
Neither. Brussels has the final say.
Don't the 27 individual EU countries have a bit of input too?
Yes but through Brussels,which is the conduit.
So Brussels doesn't have the final say.
reohn2 wrote:broadway wrote:BrianFox wrote:
Neither. Brussels has the final say.
Don't the 27 individual EU countries have a bit of input too?
Yes but through Brussels,which is the conduit.
reohn2 wrote:Psamathe wrote:Except that we were part of Brussels. We also used to "have that say". Our democratically elected MEPs sat in the EU Parliament, etc.
Ian
Quite,though some would have you believe the UK has/had no say in anything the EU decided
meic wrote:reohn2 wrote:Psamathe wrote:Except that we were part of Brussels. We also used to "have that say". Our democratically elected MEPs sat in the EU Parliament, etc.
Ian
Quite,though some would have you believe the UK has/had no say in anything the EU decided :?
According to Mrs May in Verona, that will be the case for two years in the near future.
She could have chosen a route were we maintain our say
BrianFox wrote:She could have chosen a route were we maintain our say
Going back to my original point - that Brussels not the UK govt will decide - I very much doubt that option would be offered to use by the EU.
What incentive is there for the EU to allow us to maintain our say during a transition?
pete75 wrote:So remaining in the single market, paying into EU funds and free movement for two years after we've left the EU. What's the betting it may be extended time and again. It'd satisfy the referendum result because we'd officially have left the EU and satisfy the remainers because nothing would have really changed. Isn't that what's called a win-win?
reohn2 wrote:Psamathe wrote:Except that we were part of Brussels. We also used to "have that say". Our democratically elected MEPs sat in the EU Parliament, etc.
Ian
Quite,though some would have you believe the UK has/had no say in anything the EU decided
Psamathe wrote:pete75 wrote:BrianFox wrote:
Neither. Brussels has the final say.
Really? I suspect on the EU side Mrs Merkel has more say than anyone in Brussels.
Difficult to know but I suspect that with regard Brexit Merkel might not have as much say as everybody thinks. My thoughts are that recently the more eastern EU member states have started standing up for themselves and not just doing what Merkel says (e.g. over the refugee crisis), shown that they are not there to do Merkel's bidding. Plus, those more eastern EU member states have far lower exports into the UK and value Freedom of Movement. So if Merkel starts trying to push for an outcome to suit German business without e.g. Freedom of Movement then the eastern member states might start not doing what she says (and remembering that EU trade deals require unanimity - every member state has a veto).
Ian
pete75 wrote:Psamathe wrote:pete75 wrote:
Really? I suspect on the EU side Mrs Merkel has more say than anyone in Brussels.
Difficult to know but I suspect that with regard Brexit Merkel might not have as much say as everybody thinks. My thoughts are that recently the more eastern EU member states have started standing up for themselves and not just doing what Merkel says (e.g. over the refugee crisis), shown that they are not there to do Merkel's bidding. Plus, those more eastern EU member states have far lower exports into the UK and value Freedom of Movement. So if Merkel starts trying to push for an outcome to suit German business without e.g. Freedom of Movement then the eastern member states might start not doing what she says (and remembering that EU trade deals require unanimity - every member state has a veto).
Ian
Yep and then she might turn off the money taps. They need to be very careful because once Britain's contribution has gone the amount of money available to them will be reduced unless Germany increases it's contribution.
BrianFox wrote:To be clear, Broadway, "Brussels" was hand shorthand for "the institutions of the European Community", many of which are based in Brussels.
Hope that helps.
Yours semantically etc.
mjr wrote:reohn2 wrote:Psamathe wrote:Except that we were part of Brussels. We also used to "have that say". Our democratically elected MEPs sat in the EU Parliament, etc.
Ian
Quite,though some would have you believe the UK has/had no say in anything the EU decided
It has long been a favourite tactic of the UK government to "gold plate" decisions that they helped take at EU level and then blame the increased red tape on "Brussels", while the Europhobic press of economic migrant Murdoch, pornographer Desmond and right-wing Rothermere willingly went along with it. With the stonking level of misinformation about the EU and the complete lack of effort to demistify it from pretty much everyone except the EU, who were always slightly stuck by having few resources in the UK, I don't think we can really blame most people for believing the lies repeated again and again by politicians and press.
broadway wrote:BrianFox wrote:To be clear, Broadway, "Brussels" was hand shorthand for "the institutions of the European Community", many of which are based in Brussels.
Hope that helps.
Yours semantically etc.
"Brussel"s is rather catch all shorthand that is often used suggest that the 28 countries of the EU don't have a say.
Psamathe wrote:pete75 wrote:Psamathe wrote:Difficult to know but I suspect that with regard Brexit Merkel might not have as much say as everybody thinks. My thoughts are that recently the more eastern EU member states have started standing up for themselves and not just doing what Merkel says (e.g. over the refugee crisis), shown that they are not there to do Merkel's bidding. Plus, those more eastern EU member states have far lower exports into the UK and value Freedom of Movement. So if Merkel starts trying to push for an outcome to suit German business without e.g. Freedom of Movement then the eastern member states might start not doing what she says (and remembering that EU trade deals require unanimity - every member state has a veto).
Ian
Yep and then she might turn off the money taps. They need to be very careful because once Britain's contribution has gone the amount of money available to them will be reduced unless Germany increases it's contribution.
I suspect that if we crash out without agreement and without meeting our financial obligations it will cause a minor blip to the EU that wont affect them much but it would devastate the UK. When we come to negotiate all these fabulous trade deals Fox (sorry, Dr. Fox) is promising, those partners will have seem and remembered how the UK does not honour its agreements so the deal they will agree to will be much worse (as it'll be made on the assumption the Uk might just take the benefits and then walk out without honouring its obligations to them). EU would manage with a few year blip in the budget but impacts on UK will go on for years suffering worse trade deals than we might have got.
Plus much more of the City will have to move to EU member states which blows away a lot of our trade with the EU, and helps make up EU budgets shortfalls when they start collecting all those taxes from the lucrative finance sector. It looks like we are already losing a fair portion of the City, but crash out with no deal and not honouring our existing obligations and we'll lose a lot more.
Ian
pete75 wrote:Psamathe wrote:pete75 wrote:
Yep and then she might turn off the money taps. They need to be very careful because once Britain's contribution has gone the amount of money available to them will be reduced unless Germany increases it's contribution.
I suspect that if we crash out without agreement and without meeting our financial obligations it will cause a minor blip to the EU that wont affect them much but it would devastate the UK. When we come to negotiate all these fabulous trade deals Fox (sorry, Dr. Fox) is promising, those partners will have seem and remembered how the UK does not honour its agreements so the deal they will agree to will be much worse (as it'll be made on the assumption the Uk might just take the benefits and then walk out without honouring its obligations to them). EU would manage with a few year blip in the budget but impacts on UK will go on for years suffering worse trade deals than we might have got.
Plus much more of the City will have to move to EU member states which blows away a lot of our trade with the EU, and helps make up EU budgets shortfalls when they start collecting all those taxes from the lucrative finance sector. It looks like we are already losing a fair portion of the City, but crash out with no deal and not honouring our existing obligations and we'll lose a lot more.
Ian
I was talking about the long term EU budget once Britain's contribution has gone. There'll need to be some realignment of finances. Germany will have a great deal of say about what happens.