** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

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Psamathe
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by Psamathe »

windmiller wrote:....The result won't change no matter how many utopian rainbow warriors parade in front of Tv cameras. .....

The results can and statistically have changed because of the demographic changes that have inevitably taken place in the UK. Statistically more older people voted Leave and statistically mor younger people voted Remain. Time has moved on and older people have been dying and more younger people have been getting old enough to get the vote. So, if nobody changed their mind, mid-Jan this year (several months ago) the balance swung to a remain majority.

Statistics at work.

Ian
windmiller
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by windmiller »

Psamathe wrote:
windmiller wrote:....The result won't change no matter how many utopian rainbow warriors parade in front of Tv cameras. .....

The results can and statistically have changed because of the demographic changes that have inevitably taken place in the UK. Statistically more older people voted Leave and statistically mor younger people voted Remain. Time has moved on and older people have been dying and more younger people have been getting old enough to get the vote. So, if nobody changed their mind, mid-Jan this year (several months ago) the balance swung to a remain majority.

Statistics at work.

Ian

Hmmm and believing statistics/polls pulled out of the magic hat, how did that work out for you last time? Propaganda has its' uses but is no match for reality on the ground.
Most links backing up so called pro remain evidence in here are produced by furiously pro remain organisations. I have more respect for an opposing opinions fiery gut feeling than the dogmatic Andrex roll proclamations that pass for facts in here.
Oldjohnw
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by Oldjohnw »

So May ends by June. PM Boris by July.

We said this very thing a year ago.
John
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by Oldjohnw »

windmiller wrote:After the Brexit vote the sky collapsed onto the hive that is the liberal mind. The Scream by Edvard Munch is perhaps a better description of their 3 years of " It's not fair on me" hysteria. Well actually it is because democracy won. It won because that's what over 17 million leave voters put an X in the box for. The result won't change no matter how many utopian rainbow warriors parade in front of Tv cameras. You can't cancel Brexit without doing the same to democracy which is already hamstrung by those who think that they know best. Parliament has proven to be the home of bipedal invertebrates who seek to preseve the decaying status quo which paradoxically is beyond the comprehension of the imbeciles...... end of stating the bleeding obvious rant.



It is only democracy of it can't be changed.mafter all, leavers have spent over 40 years trying to reverse an earlier vote.

So if there was another referendum (and I m not a fan of such) and the vote said remain, in what way would that be undemocratic? Or for that matter, if the vote said 'leave', would that be undemocratic?

Incidentally, the main requests for another referendum have always been to confirm or otherwise the deal.
John
mercalia
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by mercalia »

Oldjohnw wrote:
windmiller wrote:After the Brexit vote the sky collapsed onto the hive that is the liberal mind. The Scream by Edvard Munch is perhaps a better description of their 3 years of " It's not fair on me" hysteria. Well actually it is because democracy won. It won because that's what over 17 million leave voters put an X in the box for. The result won't change no matter how many utopian rainbow warriors parade in front of Tv cameras. You can't cancel Brexit without doing the same to democracy which is already hamstrung by those who think that they know best. Parliament has proven to be the home of bipedal invertebrates who seek to preseve the decaying status quo which paradoxically is beyond the comprehension of the imbeciles...... end of stating the bleeding obvious rant.



It is only democracy of it can't be changed.mafter all, leavers have spent over 40 years trying to reverse an earlier vote.

So if there was another referendum (and I m not a fan of such) and the vote said remain, in what way would that be undemocratic? Or for that matter, if the vote said 'leave', would that be undemocratic?

Incidentally, the main requests for another referendum have always been to confirm or otherwise the deal.


maybe initially but now the impetus is rather is it really worth the trouble? esp given the back stop issue, which no ordnary person knew about, seems insurmountable?
windmiller
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by windmiller »

mercalia wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:
windmiller wrote:After the Brexit vote the sky collapsed onto the hive that is the liberal mind. The Scream by Edvard Munch is perhaps a better description of their 3 years of " It's not fair on me" hysteria. Well actually it is because democracy won. It won because that's what over 17 million leave voters put an X in the box for. The result won't change no matter how many utopian rainbow warriors parade in front of Tv cameras. You can't cancel Brexit without doing the same to democracy which is already hamstrung by those who think that they know best. Parliament has proven to be the home of bipedal invertebrates who seek to preseve the decaying status quo which paradoxically is beyond the comprehension of the imbeciles...... end of stating the bleeding obvious rant.



It is only democracy of it can't be changed.mafter all, leavers have spent over 40 years trying to reverse an earlier vote.

So if there was another referendum (and I m not a fan of such) and the vote said remain, in what way would that be undemocratic? Or for that matter, if the vote said 'leave', would that be undemocratic?

Incidentally, the main requests for another referendum have always been to confirm or otherwise the deal.


maybe initially but now the impetus is rather is it really worth the trouble? esp given the back stop issue, which no ordnary person knew about, seems insurmountable?


The trouble will start if democracy is ignored. Society will fall apart, Back stops even bus stops will cease to exist. I don't think ordinary people are stupid and know perfectly well that the system is abusing their self determination. No doubt we are seen as a joke by the rest of the world, this is because of toothless indecision, not by the people but by the arrogant elite. The kraken has been released, the dice have landed, Rubicon crossed blah blah blah, no more head in the sand time left.
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Mick F
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by Mick F »

windmiller wrote:The trouble will start if democracy is ignored. Society will fall apart, Back stops even bus stops will cease to exist. I don't think ordinary people are stupid and know perfectly well that the system is abusing their self determination. No doubt we are seen as a joke by the rest of the world, this is because of toothless indecision, not by the people but by the arrogant elite. The kraken has been released, the dice have landed, Rubicon crossed blah blah blah, no more head in the sand time left.
Spot on.
Mick F. Cornwall
mercalia
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by mercalia »

a question. What do We, the people do if they cant agree a deal, wont accept leaving without deal and refuse to cancel article 50? As this look like a likely scenario? Had the default been revoking article 50 then there would be no problem?
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Mick F
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by Mick F »

There ia already a default.
Leave without a deal.
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bovlomov
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by bovlomov »

windmiller wrote:The trouble will start if democracy is ignored. Society will fall apart, Back stops even bus stops will cease to exist. I don't think ordinary people are stupid and know perfectly well that the system is abusing their self determination. No doubt we are seen as a joke by the rest of the world, this is because of toothless indecision, not by the people but by the arrogant elite. The kraken has been released, the dice have landed, Rubicon crossed blah blah blah, no more head in the sand time left.

The trouble will really start when people have no jobs and nothing to eat. And if you argue that this was already happening before the referendum, then I'd agree with you, but point out that it happened under policies promoted by almost all of the leading Brexit campaigners. We'll be in a country run by the very same people who have created the poverty, but a country with a less money and less international influence.

Democracy can be interpreted rather flexibly, but if you've been following the news you'll know that the referendum was nothing like democracy. Whether Parliament confronts that or there's another referendum, or some sort of confirmatory referendum, it will be no less democratic than pursuing the last corrupted effort.

Ordinary people aren't stupid. Can we just call them people? People aren't stupid. But as everyone in the multi-trillion dollar global advertising industry knows, and every psychology student knows, people can be influenced. It was in the referendum, to use your language, that the system abused their self-determination.
roubaixtuesday
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by roubaixtuesday »

Mick F wrote:
windmiller wrote:The trouble will start if democracy is ignored. Society will fall apart, Back stops even bus stops will cease to exist. I don't think ordinary people are stupid and know perfectly well that the system is abusing their self determination. No doubt we are seen as a joke by the rest of the world, this is because of toothless indecision, not by the people but by the arrogant elite. The kraken has been released, the dice have landed, Rubicon crossed blah blah blah, no more head in the sand time left.
Spot on.


Democracy did not end in 2016.

The conception of democracy as a single vote that the government has sole authority to interpret is profoundly undemocratic.

Nobody campaigned for a no-deal Brexit. Indeed, all the campaigns told us how easy it world be to get a good deal.

Brexit is already a disaster for the country. It's way past time for leave campaigners and indeed voters to acknowledge and take responsibility for that, rather than these ridiculous attempts to blame "elites" for their own mistakes.
Oldjohnw
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by Oldjohnw »

roubaixtuesday wrote:
Mick F wrote:
windmiller wrote:The trouble will start if democracy is ignored. Society will fall apart, Back stops even bus stops will cease to exist. I don't think ordinary people are stupid and know perfectly well that the system is abusing their self determination. No doubt we are seen as a joke by the rest of the world, this is because of toothless indecision, not by the people but by the arrogant elite. The kraken has been released, the dice have landed, Rubicon crossed blah blah blah, no more head in the sand time left.
Spot on.


Democracy did not end in 2016.

The conception of democracy as a single vote that the government has sole authority to interpret is profoundly undemocratic.

Nobody campaigned for a no-deal Brexit. Indeed, all the campaigns told us how easy it world be to get a good deal.

Brexit is already a disaster for the country. It's way past time for leave campaigners and indeed voters to acknowledge and take responsibility for that, rather than these ridiculous attempts to blame "elites" for their own mistakes.



The reality is that Brexit simply cannot work unless there is a United ireland. Otherwise we are perpetually trying to be simultaneous both in and out.
John
mr bajokoses
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by mr bajokoses »

Oldjohnw wrote:
roubaixtuesday wrote:
Mick F wrote:Spot on.


Democracy did not end in 2016.

The conception of democracy as a single vote that the government has sole authority to interpret is profoundly undemocratic.

Nobody campaigned for a no-deal Brexit. Indeed, all the campaigns told us how easy it world be to get a good deal.

Brexit is already a disaster for the country. It's way past time for leave campaigners and indeed voters to acknowledge and take responsibility for that, rather than these ridiculous attempts to blame "elites" for their own mistakes.



The reality is that Brexit simply cannot work unless there is a United ireland. Otherwise we are perpetually trying to be simultaneous both in and out.


Correct. May criticises Parliament for not taking decisions. But this is the big decision that has not been discussed meaningfully since the referendum, and it is May who is responsible for that.

We could present the brexit trilemma very simply, for the benefit of those voters who still do not recognise the hard choices the UK must make:

Choose any two of:
1. No hard border in Ireland
2. Integrity of the United Kingdom
3. Brexit

You must choose two. You cannot choose one, or all three. One of these three choices has to be sacrificed.

So which is it, leavers? Windmiller, you seem very insistent that Brexit must be done, so what is your choice from the above?
mercalia
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by mercalia »

Oldjohnw wrote:
roubaixtuesday wrote:
Mick F wrote:Spot on.


Democracy did not end in 2016.

The conception of democracy as a single vote that the government has sole authority to interpret is profoundly undemocratic.

Nobody campaigned for a no-deal Brexit. Indeed, all the campaigns told us how easy it world be to get a good deal.

Brexit is already a disaster for the country. It's way past time for leave campaigners and indeed voters to acknowledge and take responsibility for that, rather than these ridiculous attempts to blame "elites" for their own mistakes.



The reality is that Brexit simply cannot work unless there is a United ireland. Otherwise we are perpetually trying to be simultaneous both in and out.


or "we" become the Isles of Ireland and Gt Britain, as one DUP supporter suggested, since we have devolved govts now in Scotland?
Last edited by mercalia on 23 May 2019, 9:26am, edited 1 time in total.
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Mick F
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by Mick F »

mr bajokoses wrote: ................... and it is May who is responsible for that.
No it's not.
She's doing her best, but it was Cameron's government who shelved the decision and sloped shoulders onto the electorate in the belief (Ha! Ha!) that the population would vote to remain, so he got parliament to be bound by the result of the referendum. End of the issue at a stroke.

How wrong he was.

By procrastinating by getting the public to make its mind up instead of parliament, the whole can of worms has been spilled.
There's only two ways ahead:

Leave straight away.
Revoke Art50.

Devil and the deep blue sea.
Blame Cameron's government, but if you go back far enough, the whole can of worms was being filled back in the early 1960s.
Mick F. Cornwall
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