** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

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PH
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Re: Theresa May's 'Brexit means Brexit' catchphrase is meaningless, Tory minister admits

Post by PH »

al_yrpal wrote:When we confirmed in the 1970s referendum that we wanted to be in the Common Market that was good enough. Now, when we voted to leave in a referendum 50 years later a court decides we need parliamentry approval? If you need parliament to decide why have a referendum? You couldnt make it up, its a stitch up.
Al

You don't seem to have any problem making it up!
Before the 1975 referendum new terms were agreed and the House of Commons voted 396 to 170 to continue within the Common Market on the new terms. Then as now there is no need for a parliamentary vote for the status que, it’s already been through the parliamentary process.
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661-Pete
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Re: Theresa May's 'Brexit means Brexit' catchphrase is meaningless, Tory minister admits

Post by 661-Pete »

al_yrpal wrote:When we confirmed in the 1970s referendum that we wanted to be in the Common Market that was good enough. Now, when we voted to leave in a referendum 50 years later a court decides we need parliamentry approval?

The 1975 referendum result maintained the status quo. The outcome would have been exactly the same as if the Government had done nothing. I hardly imagine you need parliamentary approval not to do anything...

If you need parliament to decide why have a referendum? You couldnt make it up, its a stitch up.
Precisely. I didn't ask for any silly referendum. "I don't need no stinkin' referendum!" as the guy in Treasure of the Sierra Madre didn't quite say....

A lot of MPs who support this very bad move are going to find themselves out on their ears.
If so, that's down to the electorate - at the next GE, whenever that happens. Oh for our uncertain, fickle, electorate!
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meic
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Re: Theresa May's 'Brexit means Brexit' catchphrase is meaningless, Tory minister admits

Post by meic »

EU elections are meaningless. Nobody cares about them because we all know the EU parliament is a sham.


So there are votes which matter (the ones which agree with Blackbike) and elections that dont matter (the ones which dont support Blackbike).

Long Live (some selected) will of the People.
Election after election people votes for pro_EU governments, Long Live The Will of The People.
They have now voted to leave the EU but have also voted pro_EU people to manage this change, Long Live the Will of The People.

When our Elected Tory Government negotiates a soft Brexit-Light, Long Live The Will of The People.

However you will no longer have the British People represented in the EU, stuff the Will of The People.
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meic
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Re: Theresa May's 'Brexit means Brexit' catchphrase is meaningless, Tory minister admits

Post by meic »

I can't get rid of a Polish MEP or a German Brussels bureaucrat who lie and have a say in EU made laws I have to obey.

You cant get rid of 649 of the British MPs who lie and have a say in the UK laws which you have to obey (as well as signing up for the EU laws you dont like).

In fact there is virtually nothing that you can do about the MP who you did vote for, that would take thousands of votes. That is a big problem with democracy one person's vote counts for almost nothing.
Those pesky Poles have just as much right to decide the future of the EU as the great Blackbike has.
Of course that situation will change in a couple of years time and only the Pesky Foreigners will be deciding the rules which we will have signed up to carry on obeying. :mrgreen:
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661-Pete
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Re: Theresa May's 'Brexit means Brexit' catchphrase is meaningless, Tory minister admits

Post by 661-Pete »

meic wrote:So there are votes which matter (the ones which agree with Blackbike) and elections that dont matter (the ones which dont support Blackbike).
The heart of the matter. This is what I think is called 'cherry-picking'.

meic wrote:In fact there is virtually nothing that you can do about the MP who you did vote for, that would take thousands of votes.
Very occasionally, things turn out different. But it really is very occasionally. I can think of Winchester, GE 1997 (though that result was later voided on a technicality); Carmarthen, GE February 1974; Peterborough, GE 1966; Brighton KempTown, GE 1964. Probably a few others - but these single-digit majorities are very rare.

Come to think of it - the referendum result was pretty close - though not so close as the above examples....
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al_yrpal
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Re: Theresa May's 'Brexit means Brexit' catchphrase is meaningless, Tory minister admits

Post by al_yrpal »

There are routine votes of our representatives in parliament, thats fine. But, when they consult the people, one man or woman one vote, on a very important matter through a referendum isnt that something special? The referendum was offered to give the people a direct say, now parliament is having the final say on whether to actually execute the will of the people! Why even bother with a referendum if parliament can overturn it? I believe its unconstitutinal and if the Supreme Court isnt stitched up like the High Court they will reject the proposal for a parliamentry vote.

We were given the opportunity to confirm the will of parliament in the 1975 vote, apparently this time our wishes apparently dont count. Polls taken recently say that 4% of leavers would now vote remain, but 6% of remainers would now vote leave. So the will of the people is still leave.

Al
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mikeonabike
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Re: Theresa May's 'Brexit means Brexit' catchphrase is meaningless, Tory minister admits

Post by mikeonabike »

al_yrpal wrote:The referendum was offered to give the people a direct say, now parliament is having the final say on whether to actually execute the will of the people!
No, parliament is having a say as to how Brexit is done, not whether to do it.
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bovlomov
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Re: Theresa May's 'Brexit means Brexit' catchphrase is meaningless, Tory minister admits

Post by bovlomov »

meic wrote:
EU elections are meaningless. Nobody cares about them because we all know the EU parliament is a sham.


So there are votes which matter (the ones which agree with Blackbike) and elections that dont matter (the ones which dont support Blackbike).


Blackbike generally likes the Westminster parliament, because we can vote them out and because it represent sovereignty (as he sees it). But he likes the referendum because it has been the only chance for The People to say what they think about EU membership.

I'm not sure whether the People were unable to speak through Parliament on this matter alone, or whether only this matter matters. In a parliamentary democracy there are thousands of issues that The People don't have a say over - on which the People are unable to speak. Should there be a referendum on each of those?

Also, I think Blackbike is arguing that, as this is the first time in decades that the People have been asked, and because they said Leave, this must have been the People's wish throughout those decades (or for how long? He doesn't specify). I think that's a bit of a stretch - especially for someone who has been backing Parliament against the EU.
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Re: Theresa May's 'Brexit means Brexit' catchphrase is meaningless, Tory minister admits

Post by PH »

al_yrpal wrote: now parliament is having the final say on whether to actually execute the will of the people!
Al


Is it? I haven't heard any MP* say they are not going to act on the result of the referendum, have you? What they should have is the final say on is how the will of the people is executed, that's all the people, the 52% who voted to leave and the 48% who voted to say. The question on the ballot paper was clear enough, in or out, it would be an absolute travesty of democracy if we didn't now leave. No one was asked how we should leave, such things are and should be decided by our parliament, it would be an equal travesty in they weren't.

* The exception being Scottish MPs, who you'd expect to act on the will of their constituents.
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661-Pete
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Re: Theresa May's 'Brexit means Brexit' catchphrase is meaningless, Tory minister admits

Post by 661-Pete »

al_yrpal wrote:We were given the opportunity to confirm the will of parliament in the 1975 vote, apparently this time our wishes apparently dont count. Polls taken recently say that 4% of leavers would now vote remain, but 6% of remainers would now vote leave. So the will of the people is still leave.

Opinion polls ..... opinion schmolls .....
Guess why I'm s***-scared about what might happen on November 8th.... :(
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al_yrpal
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Re: Theresa May's 'Brexit means Brexit' catchphrase is meaningless, Tory minister admits

Post by al_yrpal »

mikeonabike wrote:
al_yrpal wrote:The referendum was offered to give the people a direct say, now parliament is having the final say on whether to actually execute the will of the people!
No, parliament is having a say as to how Brexit is done, not whether to do it.


No its not. MPs could vote not to leave and leave is the will of the people.

Al
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Psamathe
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Re: Theresa May's 'Brexit means Brexit' catchphrase is meaningless, Tory minister admits

Post by Psamathe »

al_yrpal wrote:... The referendum was offered to give the people a direct say...

No. The referendum was created to "give the people" and advisory say. That was clear in the legislation for the referendum (and something that is not disputed).

Ian
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Re: Theresa May's 'Brexit means Brexit' catchphrase is meaningless, Tory minister admits

Post by kwackers »

al_yrpal wrote:No its not. MPs could vote not to leave and leave is the will of the people.

Al

Don't forget Boaty McBoat Face, there's a travesty if ever there was one.
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al_yrpal
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Re: Theresa May's 'Brexit means Brexit' catchphrase is meaningless, Tory minister admits

Post by al_yrpal »

kwackers wrote:
al_yrpal wrote:No its not. MPs could vote not to leave and leave is the will of the people.

Al

Don't forget Boaty McBoat Face, there's a travesty if ever there was one.


They are actually going to use Boaty McBoat Face - on the ships sub! So, we avoid being a laughing stock, and show our sense of humour is intact. :D

In the case of the decision to leave, remainers could stonewall the decision to leave indefinately. We could get an early election and a further right Tory government with an even weaker opposition. Even more delay and uncertainty :?

Al
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Re: Theresa May's 'Brexit means Brexit' catchphrase is meaningless, Tory minister admits

Post by yakdiver »

So the next vote will be best out of three then, you couldn't make it up,
Oh yes you could we are the laughing stock of the world.
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