** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

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Bonefishblues
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by Bonefishblues »

Cyril Haearn wrote:
reohn2 wrote:
Cyril Haearn wrote:They were ignorant* and did not bother forming their own opinions

Many voted leave to send a shot across the bows of the govt, did not expect to "win"


* nothing wrong with that

Best case yet for a second referendum now that they stand on the cliff edge.

It would be close, maybe the result would be leave again, hard to believe, Minus 99 :(

Has there been any more light cast on the situation in the meantime, I wonder?

I suspect that what has happened may only have served to cement existing views. :?
reohn2
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by reohn2 »

Bonefishblues wrote:@ R2.
..........
Of course baser instincts were in play on both sides, I would acknowledge that, but we must be careful (and I accept it's now way too late, but I shall persist) to have a sensible, temperate debate in the best traditions of our country and in particular try to understand that things just ain't as black and white as many would like to paint them.

That's all :)

We'll see what happens when the brown stuff clogs up the fan,personally IMO the the lid's been off the black paint tin for some time in this septic isle.
I've tried the temperate debate that failed to make any impact on stopped up ears.
There's been overwhelming evidence posted on this thread,mostly by Psamathe and a couple of others,and warnings by the "captains" of industry,academics and many other trustworthy people of what the UK is about to lose from any brexit deal,let alone a hard brexit exit.
It's well past time to call a spade a spade.
The country is split down the middle and it is the Establishment that's caused it for it's own ends IMO,but it'll be the infighting of the people of the "lower orders" for a standard of living currently receding at a rapid rate,that causes most future concern for me.
Brexit is the entropic slope the country will slip down IMO,if you think things are bad now wait a while and see where brexit leads us

BTW if "sticking it to the man" involves chopping your own arm off I'll keep my arm thanks as I can defend myself better with two arms than one.
Metaphors about in the last sentence of this post.
Last edited by reohn2 on 5 Aug 2018, 11:55am, edited 1 time in total.
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reohn2
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by reohn2 »

Bonefishblues wrote:
Cyril Haearn wrote:
reohn2 wrote:Best case yet for a second referendum now that they stand on the cliff edge.

It would be close, maybe the result would be leave again, hard to believe, Minus 99 :(

Has there been any more light cast on the situation in the meantime, I wonder?

I suspect that what has happened may only have served to cement existing views. :?

Only the future holds the proof ....... .... when you eat the pudding you'll know what the cook's have been upto
Last edited by reohn2 on 5 Aug 2018, 12:03pm, edited 1 time in total.
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"All we are not stares back at what we are"
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Bonefishblues
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by Bonefishblues »

reohn2 wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:@ R2.
..........
Of course baser instincts were in play on both sides, I would acknowledge that, but we must be careful (and I accept it's now way too late, but I shall persist) to have a sensible, temperate debate in the best traditions of our country and in particular try to understand that things just ain't as black and white as many would like to paint them.

That's all :)

We'll see what happens when the brown stuff clogs up the fan,personally IMO the the lid's been off the black paint tin for some time in this septic isle.
I've tried the temperate debate that failed to make any impact on stopped up ears.
There's been overwhelming evidence posted on this thread,mostly by Psamathe and a couple of others,and warnings by the "captains" of industry,academics and many other trustworthy people of what the UK is about to lose from any brexit deal,let alone a hard brexit exit.
It's well past time to call a spade a spade.
The country is split down the middle and it is the Establishment that's caused it for it's own ends IMO,but it'll be the infighting of the people of the "lower orders" for a standard of living currently receding at a rapid rate,that causes most future concern for me.
Brexit is the entropic slope the country will slip down IMO,if you think things are bad now wait a while and see where brexit leads us

BTW if "sticking it to the man" involves chopping your own arm off I'll keep my arm thanks as I can defend myself better with two arms than one.
Metaphors about in the last sentence of this post.

The nub may be just there. Who is trusted, or trustworthy?
reohn2
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by reohn2 »

Bonefishblues wrote:The nub may be just there. Who is trusted, or trustworthy?

But what they said is happening,big companies preparing to move to the Continent,some already have.
On a small scale I was listening to an chap who runs an industrial heating and plumbing business that imports from the EU,he orders stuff on Monday and fits it on Wednesday,he cant afford like most companies these days to carry stock.His major worry was supply,I wondered how many other companies of every kind are in the same boat.
I thinking delays and tariffs
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Bonefishblues
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by Bonefishblues »

Being right doesn't mean being trusted, iyswim.

As I intimated earlier, (and would speculate that the catalyst was 2008, and perhaps Iraq for some) something has driven a wedge between the ordinary people and as I termed them earlier, the ruling classes, in which I would also class the fat cats, so called, of industry, in addition to politicians.

There is visceral hatred of people who sold a generation, and who knows, generations to come, down the river. Didn't see many of the middle classes+ struggling with austerity, did they.
reohn2
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by reohn2 »

Bonefishblues wrote:Being right doesn't mean being trusted, iyswim.

As I intimated earlier, (and would speculate that the catalyst was 2008, and perhaps Iraq for some) something has driven a wedge between the ordinary people and as I termed them earlier, the ruling classes, in which I would also class the fat cats, so called, of industry, in addition to politicians.

There is visceral hatred of people who sold a generation, and who knows, generations to come, down the river. Didn't see many of the middle classes+ struggling with austerity, did they.

I agree the wedge is there and has been for sometime.
The problem is IMO it's about to become exasperated by brexit and the ordinary thoughtless wo/man on the street who voted for it and think that once rid of the EU's meddling in their lives(as they see it)and everything doesn't suddenly get better but quite the opposite.
Their first port of call for their anxt and blaim because of that,will be immigrants and the self protecting likes of BoJo and Farage,etc will do nothing to stop what they've created.
The immigrants will return home or them that can't will suffer as a result as will the services they managed so well.
More libral thinking UK citizens will feel the pressure of that too and those who can will emigrate taking their not inconsiderable talents with them,resulting in further suffering of the services they managed.
The rotten apple fat cats of industry will either up sticks and move on taking their money and businesses with them or exploit in any way they see fit the reduction and or absense of human and workers rights,we see this happening now with zero hours contracts and the likes of the way Amazon and other unscrupulous companies treat their workers under existing unenforced legislation,when their is less or no legislation they'll treat them even worse,whilst at the same timepaying little or no taxes.
Mrs May has even threatened the EU with turning the UK into a tax haven for such companies.
This may go on for some while until the people wake up to how bad things have become for them,upto now it's been a steady decline, but IMO were about to see a shift in decline downward and the result won't be a pretty sight.

Temperance will at some point shift to an extremely intemperate and intolerant societal norm.We see some of this ATM,especially from a cyclist POV who rides on UK roads,but it's there in society,what once was a tolerant place to live and work,is shifting to a more dog eat dog society where homelessness has grown exponentially and working people at the bottom of the pay scale are using food banks to make ends meet,during the time this sickly,stupid and totally incompetent bunch of millionaire hurrah Henry's and Henriettas came to power.
We are indeed becoming like the USA where the holes in the safety net are growing bigger as quick as homeslness and poverty are and where the trickle down never went further than the rich's bank account..
Last edited by reohn2 on 5 Aug 2018, 1:36pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Flinders
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by Flinders »

Bonefishblues wrote:@ R2

I don't think for a moment that people believed those things tbh, any more than US voters believed Trump's hyperbolic rantings.

This was an extraordinary opportunity at exactly the right time to stick one up the posterior of the ruling classes who had taken them for fools for a very, very long time. A bit like the diet of utter rowlocks that had been spouted by both sides during what passed for a debate during the lead up to the vote. Emergency Budget next Wednesday if you vote Leave, anyone? I mean c'mon, how low can you go in terms of your patronising of the Electorate - and of course the £350m Health Service bus is now legendary.

One interview summed it up for me. A Leave supporter was interviewed and asked if he thought he would be worse off. He thought for a while and answered that yes, he did think that, but that on balance it was a price worth paying.

..
That's all :)

And did the interviewer followup with- 'worth paying for what?' you have to keep pressing them until they are forced to admit the answer is 'no idea, that's just what I was told' or 'nothing'. IF the answer is 'sovereignty' they you need to press further- a) on what issue (usually easy to demolish that one) and/or 'what do you think of our unelected house of lords, where rich people and bishops get a bigger say than you?'
Bonefishblues
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by Bonefishblues »

Flinders wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:@ R2

I don't think for a moment that people believed those things tbh, any more than US voters believed Trump's hyperbolic rantings.

This was an extraordinary opportunity at exactly the right time to stick one up the posterior of the ruling classes who had taken them for fools for a very, very long time. A bit like the diet of utter rowlocks that had been spouted by both sides during what passed for a debate during the lead up to the vote. Emergency Budget next Wednesday if you vote Leave, anyone? I mean c'mon, how low can you go in terms of your patronising of the Electorate - and of course the £350m Health Service bus is now legendary.

One interview summed it up for me. A Leave supporter was interviewed and asked if he thought he would be worse off. He thought for a while and answered that yes, he did think that, but that on balance it was a price worth paying.

..
That's all :)

And did the interviewer followup with- 'worth paying for what?' you have to keep pressing them until they are forced to admit the answer is 'no idea, that's just what I was told' or 'nothing'. IF the answer is 'sovereignty' they you need to press further- a) on what issue (usually easy to demolish that one) and/or 'what do you think of our unelected house of lords, where rich people and bishops get a bigger say than you?'

No they didn't. Nor, in the context of the interview, should they have done.

The gentleman was voting for a poorer future, knowingly so, and that spoke much greater volumes than any forensic demolition of his reasons and/or rationale could have done.

So no, you don't always have to keep pressing.
Cyril Haearn
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by Cyril Haearn »

The final outcome will be clear in a few decades
Until then all is speculation
I wonder whether it would be worth praying, yes, I shall try that
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reohn2
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by reohn2 »

Cyril Haearn wrote:The final outcome will be clear in a few decades
Until then all is speculation

I've "speculated" that the UK is in for a rough ride in the meantime,and given my reasons for that.Others of the opposite persuasion seem a bit thin on the ground in explaining why they think things will be better.

I wonder whether it would be worth praying, yes, I shall try that

Save yourself the trouble,it doesn't work!
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francovendee
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by francovendee »

reohn2 wrote:
Cyril Haearn wrote:The final outcome will be clear in a few decades
Until then all is speculation

I've "speculated" that the UK is in for a rough ride in the meantime,and given my reasons for that.Others of the opposite persuasion seem a bit thin on the ground in explaining why they think things will be better.

I wonder whether it would be worth praying, yes, I shall try that

Save yourself the trouble,it doesn't work!


I'd agree with you, hang on to your seats it a roller coaster ride ahead and downhill all the way :( :(
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meic
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by meic »

Cyril Haearn wrote:The final outcome will be clear in a few decades
Until then all is speculation

I wonder whether it would be worth praying, yes, I shall try that


The GB Pound has fallen against the US dollar from 2.4 to 1.4 while we have been in the EU, does that mean the EU was a dismal failure?
We will NEVER know if the other path was better or worse because we will only take the one path.
Remaining in the EU may have led to some fate far worse.

Just as if Trump was not elected, Hilary Clinton could have already got us into WW3 by now.
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by Vorpal »

meic wrote:
Cyril Haearn wrote:The final outcome will be clear in a few decades
Until then all is speculation

I wonder whether it would be worth praying, yes, I shall try that


The GB Pound has fallen against the US dollar from 2.4 to 1.4 while we have been in the EU, does that mean the EU was a dismal failure?
We will NEVER know if the other path was better or worse because we will only take the one path.
Remaining in the EU may have led to some fate far worse.

Just as if Trump was not elected, Hilary Clinton could have already got us into WW3 by now.

We cannot know for certain, but we can estimate the likelihood, based upon other events, history, the people involved, etc.

Hilary Clinto is unlikely to have already gotten us into WW3 by now.
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djnotts
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by djnotts »

I see that Davis et al are now telling EU IT will be the one to suffer if no deal. Yeah, right. Sans UK EU will remain "(The European Union is) the second largest economy in the world in nominal terms and according to purchasing power parity (PPP). The European Union's GDP was estimated to be €15.3 trillion (nominal) in 2017,[21] representing ~22% of global economy (nominal global GDP)."

We will be somewhat smaller......but as just another State of USA effect may be cushioned. Until that truly debt burdened disaster waiting to happen collapses - i.e. when China calls in its IOUs! Federal government borrowing really is mind-boggling!
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