** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

[thirdcrank]

... Oh yes , of course everything anyone opposed to leaving the EU says is a lie and everything your Johnson, Farage, Gove and Rees-Mogg say is the absolute truth.
Keep telling yourself that whatever outcome there is will be brilliant - you may even end up being convinced.

Just to ensure clarity, I thought it was obvious there was a a touch of irony in my post.

[pete75]

... Oh yes , of course everything anyone opposed to leaving the EU says is a lie and everything your Johnson, Farage, Gove and Rees-Mogg say is the absolute truth.
Keep telling yourself that whatever outcome there is will be brilliant - you may even end up being convinced.

Just to ensure clarity, I thought it was obvious there was a a touch of irony in my post.

You've mentioned in the past you read the Torygraph so wasn't sure. Just thought I'd check

[bovlomov]

... Oh yes , of course everything anyone opposed to leaving the EU says is a lie and everything your Johnson, Farage, Gove and Rees-Mogg say is the absolute truth.
Keep telling yourself that whatever outcome there is will be brilliant - you may even end up being convinced.

Just to ensure clarity, I thought it was obvious there was a a touch of irony in my post.

You've mentioned in the past you read the Torygraph so wasn't sure. Just thought I'd check

I hoped that there would be some consensus here, between left/right and Leave/Remain. Surely every sane person agrees that Farage, Gove, Rees-Mogg and Johnson are lying *&£$#@%s, and the government is making a terrible job of Brexit. That should be the base line for further discussion.

[Cyril Haearn]

I am not able to judge whether someone is lying & €@#%

[reohn2]

I hoped that there would be some consensus here, between left/right and Leave/Remain. Surely every sane person agrees that Farage, Gove, Rees-Mogg and Johnson are lying *&£$#@%s, and the government is making a terrible job of Brexit. That should be the base line for further discussion.

A big PLUS1 to that, people I wouldn't to run the proverbial in a brewery

[Stevek76]

I'm rather suspicious of people claiming that anyone who is Eurosceptic cannot think for themselves and only exists on a diet of opinion or lies, whereas of course, those who are happy to continue to a federal Europe are insightful, intelligent and know the EU exists only for a wonderful utopian vision.

I didn't say anything of the sort, again I point to the ipsos mori poll, plenty of remain voters were hopelessly off as well, and while they did better on average, I'm sure many would have been more likely to believe the more ridiculous claims made by the remain campaign.

I actually think that the vast majority cannot think for themselves very well and this is reinforced pretty much every day with the amount of complete rubbish shared, forwarded and repeated (urban myths, quote misattributions, whatever) even by apparently quite intelligent folk in a completely unquestioning manner. The twittersphere is a particularly horrific public example of this, for an on topic example just look at how often things like the claim that the EU has 20,000 of words to say on cabbages gets reshared. And this is just a reflection of confirmation bias which affects everyone to some degree and that's simply a result of evolution, there wasn't enough time to think every complex issue through so the brain goes with a best guess and suppresses doubt, if it fits the current thoughts then great, if it doesn't then discard it.

Direct democracy is a silly idea.

As for the EU it's not whether it's super great or some utopia, very few hold that opinion. It's whether, 40 years deep into membership, are the gains from leaving worth the cost of doing so, economically and socially.

[Ben@Forest]

I'm with Kwackers with regard to trusting expert opinion. A PhD is not an unreasonable place to start with figuring who has and does not have expertise on a particular subject. Does that mean that someone with a PhD in theology is more trustworthy on the subject of European economics than someone without one? Of course not. But someone with a PhD in Economics and a speciality in European trade is certain to have a better understanding of the economic impact of Brexit than the vast majority (99.99%?) of the folks discussing it.

At the risk of flogging a dead horse I'm not convinced on this. People with PhDs or other qualifications still have political, economic or religious opinions and may use their education or status to promulgate those beliefs. Sometimes they will have made studies with the express intent of proving a preconceived view.

I'm afraid the Euro is one such instance. Armies of politicians, economists and civil servants with the best qualifications made the case for the Euro essentially to further a political dogma. A huge number of equally qualified people demonstrated the potential weaknesses and shortcomings and most of those fears have been proven. But experts full of PhDs rode roughshod over such concerns.

[PDQ Mobile]

Well the Euro remains stronger against the pound than it was 8 years ago?
The pound is rubbish.
A weak pound maybe good for exporters but it's crap for many other aspects of the economy.

[Ben@Forest]

Well the Euro remains stronger against the pound than it was 8 years ago?
The pound is rubbish.
A weak pound maybe good for exporters but it's crap for many other aspects of the economy.

I think you need to look at what the Euro has done to the southern European economies, it has made them uncompetitive and they cannot devalue their currency to restore competitiveness. This has led to massive youth unemployment and an increase in supporting political parties at either end of the political spectrum. The euro isn't just about it's relation to the £ or indeed to Britain at all.

[Psamathe]

....
A weak pound maybe good for exporters but it's crap for many other aspects of the economy.

And given that we import more than we export ...

Ian

[thirdcrank]

... And given that we import more than we export ...

... a weaker pound discourages imports by making them more expensive, ditto overseas holidays.

[bovlomov]

People with PhDs or other qualifications still have political, economic or religious opinions and may use their education or status to promulgate those beliefs. Sometimes they will have made studies with the express intent of proving a preconceived view.

People who know about stuff aren't perfect. They have agendas. They sometimes fiddle their results. But scientists, academics and financial forecasters present their opinions together with the evidence and the method. Those are all open for debate.

What is the alternative? We can trust Hannan, Johnson, Davis, Rees Mogg and Fox, who have shown that they don't even understand what is happening, let alone what might happen.

I'll take scientists with an axe to grind, over fantasists with an axe to grind. The scientists at least show their workings out, and can be argued with. It's impossible to argue with a fantasist (hence Brexit).

[PDQ Mobile]

... And given that we import more than we export ...

... a weaker pound discourages imports by making them more expensive, ditto overseas holidays.

It's true about imports.
But if EU produced goods become too expensive then one can turn to China. Their currency has been held artificially weak by the "Party".
(("We can trade with the rest of the world after we leave the EU ))
So we buy so much from China that is ridiculously cheap but a good deal of it is actually shoddy and of poor quality.
Someone once wrote on the Forum:- "My grandfather always said he couldn't afford cheap tools".
A false economy. And so it has often proved in my fairly wide experience.

What we import most of from the EU is food, much of it of very high quality. The weak pound has made much of that more expensive and we are pretty dependent upon it. Food!!

And then there's oil...
Something like 60 or 70% of the food on the plate is totally dependent upon oil, in production, transport and storage.
The weak pound effects all this.

I take the point about Southern European unemployment.
Some of it has to do with the China currency factor mentioned above, IMV.

But that is the the European dream- let the stronger countries help the weaker one's to improve their infrastructure, housing etc.
Through that can efficiency be improved, and jobs created.
It's not perfect but it's better than this greed orientated Govt. that we have.
It gives scant regard for anything sustainable (transport agriculture), and for the weaker elements in society, a reduction in living standards is seen as the only way.
Which it clearly (to me) isn't.
IMHO

[Ben@Forest]

People with PhDs or other qualifications still have political, economic or religious opinions and may use their education or status to promulgate those beliefs. Sometimes they will have made studies with the express intent of proving a preconceived view.

People who know about stuff aren't perfect. They have agendas. They sometimes fiddle their results. But scientists, academics and financial forecasters present their opinions together with the evidence and the method. Those are all open for debate.

What is the alternative? We can trust Hannan, Johnson, Davis, Rees Mogg and Fox, who have shown that they don't even understand what is happening, let alone what might happen.

I'll take scientists with an axe to grind, over fantasists with an axe to grind. The scientists at least show their workings out, and can be argued with. It's impossible to argue with a fantasist (hence Brexit).

I don't know why you are comparing experts (presumably economists, lawyers, administrators) to politicians. You should be comparing Hannan and others to Juncker, Selmayer, Barnier, Tusk and so on - do you trust those people more? We know that Juncker's past is at best muddy and Selmayr has just been appointed in a way which has scandalised the EU.

There are plenty of experts who, as l have said, saw the Euro as a political aim not a fiscal sensibility. Even
Gordon Brown was resolute enough to keep us out of it because the fudges, the cover-ups and the dodgy figures were legendary. Expertise was driven by political dogma and one could say the same about Brexit - but the EU holds no moral ground.

[kwackers]

People with PhDs or other qualifications still have political, economic or religious opinions and may use their education or status to promulgate those beliefs. Sometimes they will have made studies with the express intent of proving a preconceived view.

People who know about stuff aren't perfect. They have agendas. They sometimes fiddle their results. But scientists, academics and financial forecasters present their opinions together with the evidence and the method. Those are all open for debate.

What is the alternative? We can trust Hannan, Johnson, Davis, Rees Mogg and Fox, who have shown that they don't even understand what is happening, let alone what might happen.

I'll take scientists with an axe to grind, over fantasists with an axe to grind. The scientists at least show their workings out, and can be argued with. It's impossible to argue with a fantasist (hence Brexit).

I love the flat earth mentality to science.
Amazing just how bright ordinary people are and how they see straight through to the core of the issues without any training, they merely need a pint in their hand as Farage well showed.

Now if only the cabbies and pub experts would turn their brilliant minds to quantum physics, cellular biology and other broader sciences rather than just concentrating on economics and straight bananas then imagine what could be accomplished!

FWIW. Most of the experts on the EU I watched/read/listened too were experts on how it worked. This wasn't theory but fact, learnt over many years so in that respect there was no preconceived view to present.