** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

[Flinders]

(and ironically for Stoke, a big leave vote area, the remains of the pottery industry will be destroyed if we end up with WTO rules)

[blackbike]

It'll be highly amusing when loads of pro-EU people start telling us they support the unelected Lords if they attempt to delay democracy by impeding Brexit.

The main lesson we have learned since the start of the referendum campaign is that many people in this country, including many who regard themselves as liberal and progressive, dislike democracy because they think most of the population is too stupid to be trusted to vote correctly.

No that is the main thing you have invented. You can keep banging on as much as you like with the made up views you ascribe to other people. It will not make them true.

Good article here on the contempt for democracy which is becoming fashionable in some quarters.

The tendency for the revolting masses to use their democratic rights to vote for the ‘wrong’ things – from Brexit to Trump – has brought the old poisonous anti-democratic prejudices bubbling back to the surface of our societies. While experts criticise the idea of giving power to ‘low-information’ (aka ‘low-intelligence’) voters, politicians denounce the masses as ‘deplorables’.

http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/ar ... LLbyoXXLIU

[Psamathe]

Heseltines Last Stand - he will end up like General C?

why doesnt he just go away and act like the oap he is

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39094090

<sacrasm>
Terrible, even just suggesting that the Commons should have a "meaningful vote" - string him up without delay. Of course the Commons should only be given a meaningless vote and how dare Heseltine suggest they actually have anything meaningful.

And if the Lords are going to do such extreme things as giving the Commons a meaningful vote on the biggest decision the Uk has made in decades then they should be abolished immediately. How dare they have the temerity to even think the Commons have a meaningful say in the issue. Treason. Commons get a meaningful vote. What will they be expecting next ...
</sarcasm>

Ian

[bovlomov]

http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/five-revolting-reasons-to-fight-for-democracy-today/19486#.WLLbyoXXLIU

If I were you, I wouldn't admit to reading such twaddle. I was going to respond to it in more detail, but I've got better things to do. He is making many wild generalisations in support of his theories, without facts to back them up. To begin with, he lumps the Leave voters into one group, thus completely failing to understand them and the complexity of their motives. But then, hedge fund billionaires and foreign media moguls are harder to paint as 'the demos'.

Try reading something intelligent.

[pete75]

It'll be highly amusing when loads of pro-EU people start telling us they support the unelected Lords if they attempt to delay democracy by impeding Brexit.

The main lesson we have learned since the start of the referendum campaign is that many people in this country, including many who regard themselves as liberal and progressive, dislike democracy because they think most of the population is too stupid to be trusted to vote correctly.

No that is the main thing you have invented. You can keep banging on as much as you like with the made up views you ascribe to other people. It will not make them true.

Good article here on the contempt for democracy which is becoming fashionable in some quarters.

The tendency for the revolting masses to use their democratic rights to vote for the ‘wrong’ things – from Brexit to Trump – has brought the old poisonous anti-democratic prejudices bubbling back to the surface of our societies. While experts criticise the idea of giving power to ‘low-information’ (aka ‘low-intelligence’) voters, politicians denounce the masses as ‘deplorables’.

http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/ar ... LLbyoXXLIU

Merely an opinion piece from a website with fairly extreme views.

[pete75]

Writing in the Spectator Dominic Cummins, the vote leave campaign director, admits it was the £350 million pound a week lie that won their campaign.

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/01/do ... endum-won/

"Pundits and MPs kept saying ‘why isn’t Leave arguing about the economy and living standards’. They did not realise that for millions of people, £350m/NHS was about the economy and living standards – that’s why it was so effective. It was clearly the most effective argument not only with the crucial swing fifth but with almost every demographic. Even with UKIP voters it was level-pegging with immigration. Would we have won without immigration? No. Would we have won without £350m/NHS? All our research and the close result strongly suggests No. Would we have won by spending our time talking about trade and the Single Market? No way "

[mjr]

Europe is where communism and fascism so recently emerged - ideologies which demand total obedience to authority.

Europe, including the UK! Where was the HQ of the Communist League? What was the nationality of the philosopher who gave Social Darwinism to fascism? The UK did its bit to help both ideologies emerge, despite never being ruled by them, much to the disappointment of Blackshirts who regard tonight's BBC show SSGB as utopian fantasy.

[blackbike]

Europe is where communism and fascism so recently emerged - ideologies which demand total obedience to authority.

Europe, including the UK! Where was the HQ of the Communist League? What was the nationality of the philosopher who gave Social Darwinism to fascism? The UK did its bit to help both ideologies emerge, despite never being ruled by them, much to the disappointment of Blackshirts who regard tonight's BBC show SSGB as utopian fantasy.

In the UK there were, and probably still are, a few cranks who embraced communism and fascism.

The continental Europeans were much more enthusiastic, with communist regimes only being eradicated from the continent in 1989, and fascist ones in 1975.

I seem to remember an army officer waving a gun about in the Spanish parliament in the 80s.

And these are the people we are told by Remainers we need to depend upon to protect our human rights and other rights too.

No thank you.

I'm sure we can manage without the guidance and protection of people who have such a short history of democracy and stable, elected governments.

[661-Pete]

I seem to remember an army officer waving a gun about in the Spanish parliament in the 80s.

Are you really imputing that this piece of lunatic behaviour is representative of mainstream political opinion in mainland Europe?

I've seen plenty of arrant nonsense posted on this forum, but this really takes the biscuit.

[Psamathe]

I seem to remember an army officer waving a gun about in the Spanish parliament in the 80s.

Are you really imputing that this piece of lunatic behaviour is representative of mainstream political opinion in mainland Europe?

I've seen plenty of arrant nonsense posted on this forum, but this really takes the biscuit.

One leader of an EU country started to show dictatorial tendencies, started trying to take massively important decisions bypassing the countries democratically elected Parliament. Fortunately that leader was stopped by the courts - but we are well rid of countries that (try to) behave in such an un-democratic manner ... but .. oh dear ...

Ian

[mjr]

...with communist regimes only being eradicated from the continent in 1989, and fascist ones in 1975.

So does that mean you don't think Albania's in Europe?

And these are the people we are told by Remainers we need to depend upon to protect our human rights...

No, we need to depend upon the stronger democracy of the EU, rather than the semi-heriditary-and-appointed UK system. The sad thing is, after Brexit, we won't elect to it but are likely to still be subject to its decisions in a trade deal or similar.

[blackbike]

I seem to remember an army officer waving a gun about in the Spanish parliament in the 80s.

Are you really imputing that this piece of lunatic behaviour is representative of mainstream political opinion in mainland Europe?

I've seen plenty of arrant nonsense posted on this forum, but this really takes the biscuit.

Let us not forget that democracy is quite a novel concept for most Europeans.

That's probably how they came to devise an undemocratic, unaccountable and authoritarian organisation like the EU. For them it's not a bad effort, better than they've previously managed, but it's not as good as what we've had for much longer.

Though we are far from perfect we Brits and our ex-colonies like the USA, Canada and Australia lead the world in democracy and free speech.

We have nothing to learn from Europe in these areas.

I favour an economic relationship with Europe, not one associated with rights and freedoms.

[mjr]

EU undemocratic and UK leading the world in democracy? Do you live in backwards world?

[PDQ Mobile]

Blackbike.

IMV our domestic democracy is not all you crack it up to be.

There was barely a 30% turnout in Stoke for example.
We are divided and disillusioned.
The divided are easy to rule but it doesn't make a democracy.

Massive influence and lobbying from big business, media moguls and other vested interests pervade Westminster.
Ditto that in the ex-colonies.
Free Speech there?
Trump just prevented selected press members attending a "press"conference. Hmm

A Westminster Parliament based upon dreadful "schoolboy" behavior instead of serious discussion about the best course for our poor battered nation.

A Brexit minister( Fox) that had to repay the most money of any cabinet member during the expenses scandal. A selfish crook.

Some European democracies are older than ours!
And they have had revolutions!

At least the EU has PR and in spite of all it's cultural diversity and differing national agendas; it has put far better public transport and cycling infrastructure in place than has happened here.
Put in place better environmental standards too.
A Court of Human Rights that has made some fine bold decisions for the ordinary citizen.

My observation of the Brussels Parliament is that it is altogether more mature and prepared to enter serious discussion and compromise than Westminster.
It really tries to get things done and is not so bogged down by party politics.
In my view, it is more democratic than the UK's Westminster parliament.

[pete75]

I seem to remember an army officer waving a gun about in the Spanish parliament in the 80s.

Are you really imputing that this piece of lunatic behaviour is representative of mainstream political opinion in mainland Europe?

I've seen plenty of arrant nonsense posted on this forum, but this really takes the biscuit.

Let us not forget that democracy is quite a novel concept for most Europeans.

That's probably how they came to devise an undemocratic, unaccountable and authoritarian organisation like the EU. For them it's not a bad effort, better than they've previously managed, but it's not as good as what we've had for much longer.

Though we are far from perfect we Brits and our ex-colonies like the USA, Canada and Australia lead the world in democracy and free speech.

We have nothing to learn from Europe in these areas.

I favour an economic relationship with Europe, not one associated with rights and freedoms.

Australia, Canada and the USA - all good examples indeed of peace, democracy and brotherly love. All countries where the inhabitants were slaughtered and their land stolen from them, mainly within the last couple of hundred years.