** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

[pwa]

Populist is a valid term, meaning leaning towards easy "solutions" that won't actually work if implemented. Easy to sell to discontented punters, but fake. So it does mean something.

But it is also used in a lazy way to dismiss movements that challenge established paradigms such as neo-liberalism, globalisation and the EU. It saves you looking at those paradigms and questioning them.

[bovlomov]

Populist is a valid term, meaning leaning towards easy "solutions" that won't actually work if implemented. Easy to sell to discontented punters, but fake. So it does mean something.

But it is also used in a lazy way to dismiss movements that challenge established paradigms such as neo-liberalism, globalisation and the EU. It saves you looking at those paradigms and questioning them.

I agree with that.

But in the context of Brexit - there is a subtext to many of the discussions about neo-liberalism, globalisation and the EU. It is that Remain is the guardian of the status quo for the comfortably off while Brexit is a movement for the equalisation of wealth and opportunity. While that may apply to elements in both camps, in general it is far from the truth.

Many of us would be less worried if we believed that Brexit was a project for social justice - populist or not. The evidence, however, points the other way. Brexit is a coup by the wealthy.

[pwa]

Populist is a valid term, meaning leaning towards easy "solutions" that won't actually work if implemented. Easy to sell to discontented punters, but fake. So it does mean something.

But it is also used in a lazy way to dismiss movements that challenge established paradigms such as neo-liberalism, globalisation and the EU. It saves you looking at those paradigms and questioning them.

I agree with that.

But in the context of Brexit - there is a subtext to many of the discussions about neo-liberalism, globalisation and the EU. It is that Remain is the guardian of the status quo for the comfortably off while Brexit is a movement for the equalisation of wealth and opportunity. While that may apply to elements in both camps, in general it is far from the truth.

Many of us would be less worried if we believed that Brexit was a project for social justice - populist or not. The evidence, however, points the other way. Brexit is a coup by the wealthy.

I think the key thing is that we not only challenge the "other side", whether that be Leave or Remain, but that we also challenge things on our own side. For Remain supporters that could mean, for example, challenging the less palatable aspects of the EU as it now is. Few can believe it to be perfect. For Leave supporters it could mean challenging Boris's ideas on taxation after Brexit. Post Brexit UK will not be a Far Right land with social injustice unchallenged. It will be a parliamentary democracy with elections every four or five years, at which different visions can be put to the people. There is and can be no coup by the wealthy, for that reason. (And I note the not very hard up Branson sticking his oar in for Remain again today).

[reohn2]

Populist is a valid term, meaning leaning towards easy "solutions" that won't actually work if implemented. Easy to sell to discontented punters, but fake. So it does mean something.

But it is also used in a lazy way to dismiss movements that challenge established paradigms such as neo-liberalism, globalisation and the EU. It saves you looking at those paradigms and questioning them.

I agree,classic examples are Trump and BoJo promises that one by one will be or already have been backpedelled on.

[pete75]

Populist is a valid term, meaning leaning towards easy "solutions" that won't actually work if implemented. Easy to sell to discontented punters, but fake. So it does mean something.

But it is also used in a lazy way to dismiss movements that challenge established paradigms such as neo-liberalism, globalisation and the EU. It saves you looking at those paradigms and questioning them.

I agree with that.

But in the context of Brexit - there is a subtext to many of the discussions about neo-liberalism, globalisation and the EU. It is that Remain is the guardian of the status quo for the comfortably off while Brexit is a movement for the equalisation of wealth and opportunity. While that may apply to elements in both camps, in general it is far from the truth.

Many of us would be less worried if we believed that Brexit was a project for social justice - populist or not. The evidence, however, points the other way. Brexit is a coup by the wealthy.

I think the key thing is that we not only challenge the "other side", whether that be Leave or Remain, but that we also challenge things on our own side. For Remain supporters that could mean, for example, challenging the less palatable aspects of the EU as it now is. Few can believe it to be perfect. For Leave supporters it could mean challenging Boris's ideas on taxation after Brexit. Post Brexit UK will not be a Far Right land with social injustice unchallenged. It will be a parliamentary democracy with elections every four or five years, at which different visions can be put to the people. There is and can be no coup by the wealthy, for that reason. (And I note the not very hard up Branson sticking his oar in for Remain again today).

Only the hopelessly naive can believe that anything can be perfect.

Have you noticed the not very hard up Tim Martin continually sticking his oar in for leave and doing so far more frequently than Richard Branson?

The support for Farage's party shows just how much support the farish right has in this country. You yourself have predicted than many Labour supporters formerly voting for a left of centre party will switch their support to a farish right party. Elections are becoming less about policies and more like a popularity competition.

[reohn2]

Many of us would be less worried if we believed that Brexit was a project for social justice - populist or not. The evidence, however, points the other way. Brexit is a coup by the wealthy.

Spot on.
The term 'act in haste,repent at pleasure' or possibly 'believe the liars and get shafted as a result' could be an alternative paraphrase for the ordinary working wo/man onnthe street.

[661-Pete]

Have you noticed the not very hard up Tim Martin continually sticking his oar in for leave.....

Oh, yeah! That "Tim Martin". The no.1 Big Cheese of Booze-peddler witherspoon's, whose business interest largely depends on turning the whole nation into alcoholics. Is that what we ought to regard as one of the principal bastions of British industry?

OK - OK I'm a very small drinker, almost TT, so I may be a bit prejudiced. But no-one can argue against the fact that Brits drink far too much...

[bovlomov]

I think the key thing is that we not only challenge the "other side", whether that be Leave or Remain, but that we also challenge things on our own side. For Remain supporters that could mean, for example, challenging the less palatable aspects of the EU as it now is. Few can believe it to be perfect. For Leave supporters it could mean challenging Boris's ideas on taxation after Brexit. Post Brexit UK will not be a Far Right land with social injustice unchallenged. It will be a parliamentary democracy with elections every four or five years, at which different visions can be put to the people. There is and can be no coup by the wealthy, for that reason. (And I note the not very hard up Branson sticking his oar in for Remain again today).

Most Remain voters weren't huge EU fanboys. Many voted Remain reluctantly, being fully aware of the EU's faults. Unfortunately, the Eurosceptic wing of the Tory Party was often protective of those faults (to do with land subsidies, globalisation, tax dodging and money laundering) and wanted to talk about bananas and Muslims instead.

The democracy that comes after Brexit? Government can be done with the support of only a small minority of the population. Brexiters have given every indication that they intend to follow the Hungarian model: illiberal government, absence of human rights, heavy propaganda, political control of the press, civil service and judiciary, the general dismantling of the institutions.

Brexit isn't a coup by all the wealthy. It is a coup by only the wealthy.

[pwa]

I think the key thing is that we not only challenge the "other side", whether that be Leave or Remain, but that we also challenge things on our own side. For Remain supporters that could mean, for example, challenging the less palatable aspects of the EU as it now is. Few can believe it to be perfect. For Leave supporters it could mean challenging Boris's ideas on taxation after Brexit. Post Brexit UK will not be a Far Right land with social injustice unchallenged. It will be a parliamentary democracy with elections every four or five years, at which different visions can be put to the people. There is and can be no coup by the wealthy, for that reason. (And I note the not very hard up Branson sticking his oar in for Remain again today).

Most Remain voters weren't huge EU fanboys. Many voted Remain reluctantly, being fully aware of the EU's faults. Unfortunately, the Eurosceptic wing of the Tory Party was often protective of those faults (to do with land subsidies, globalisation, tax dodging and money laundering) and wanted to talk about bananas and Muslims instead.

The democracy that comes after Brexit? Government can be done with the support of only a small minority of the population. Brexiters have given every indication that they intend to follow the Hungarian model: illiberal government, absence of human rights, heavy propaganda, political control of the press, civil service and judiciary, the general dismantling of the institutions.

Brexit isn't a coup by all the wealthy. It is a coup by only the wealthy.

Democracy post Brexit will come down to the maths of the MPs. At the moment the Tories are struggling with a fractured governing party reliant on a fickle partner party. After the next election you think they will run away with a commanding majority? Really? They won't be propped up by large numbers of Brexit Party MPs because, as we already know from the UKIP experience, once Brexit is seen as being in the bag the whole point of the Brexit Party evaporates.

[reohn2]

I think the key thing is that we not only challenge the "other side", whether that be Leave or Remain, but that we also challenge things on our own side. For Remain supporters that could mean, for example, challenging the less palatable aspects of the EU as it now is. Few can believe it to be perfect.

I don't think anyone suffers from the illusion that the EU is anywhere near perfect which has been stressed umpteen times by remainers on this thread,myself included.No large institution is perfect,one only need look at the UK's institutions and government to realise that!
That things need to change within the EU is accepted(more so the UK political system),but the only way to do that is from the inside as on the outside the UK is powerless,and to think the UK can 'go it alone' more so without a deal is delusional.From the EU's POV a country such as ours to threaten a no deal leave only hardens it's resolve to call our bluff,for a bluff is what it is and has been said as much by the chief clown himself.

For Leave supporters it could mean challenging Boris's ideas on taxation after Brexit. Post Brexit UK will not be a Far Right land with social injustice unchallenged. It will be a parliamentary democracy with elections every four or five years, at which different visions can be put to the people

It's said 'you can't fool all the people all the time' but with a loaded system such as the UK political system you don't have to,just enough to seize power with a minority vote and buy another party in for a billion or two to shore up your own pathetic excuse for a government.

There is and can be no coup by the wealthy, for that reason.

Oh no?
Do you really believe that?
I beg to differ,the system is already loaded and set to get worse in favour of the wealthy should the likes of a BoJo led Tory party or even worse still a Farage led BXP running the show

(And I note the not very hard up Branson sticking his oar in for Remain again today).

Branson has only ever had Branson's interests at heart.

[bovlomov]

Democracy post Brexit will come down to the maths of the MPs. At the moment the Tories are struggling with a fractured governing party reliant on a fickle partner party. After the next election you think they will run away with a commanding majority? Really? They won't be propped up by large numbers of Brexit Party MPs because, as we already know from the UKIP experience, once Brexit is seen as being in the bag the whole point of the Brexit Party evaporates.

I'm talking more about the principle. UK democracy is in a very bad way. It is utterly unrepresentative, at the mercy of press barons and dark money. When I hear the argument that 'after Brexit we'll be able to make our own decisions', I look at our parliament and media and I shudder.

[PDQ Mobile]

(And I note the not very hard up Branson sticking his oar in for Remain again today).

Branson's focus was on the value of sterling.

While he is wealthy he is also a runner of genuine businesses, rather than a speculator like Rees Mogg or a seller or arms like Foxy.

Branson merely states that much of his business is conducted in dollars, notably but not only fuel.
If the pound drops to the levels he predicts, then inflation will be rampant in many sectors.
Interest rates would surely have to rise as a consequence, though that perversely might steady the pound.
Though in the present climate would be feared by many.

"Sticking his oar in" sounds rather biased.
He is a business man with an interest.
And he states that interest.
He has generally not been excessively vocal about Brexit as far as I recall.
And he is rather successful at running businesses that are renowned for being tough territory.

[roubaixtuesday]

...once Brexit is seen as being in the bag the whole point of the Brexit Party evaporates.

I very much doubt this is the case.

Firstly, Brexit will not and cannot ever be “in the bag”, as it was always a nationalist fantasy rather than a concrete policy. Regardless of “No deal”, May’s deal (tweaked or otherwise), or Remain, there are many years of negotiation to come, and countless opportunities to shout “betrayal”.

Secondly, the Brexit party is as much an Arron Banks funded vehicle for Farage as a political party. That role will continue until such time as Farage gets a better vehicle. The way things are going, he might join the Tory party and become next PM after Boris Johnson’s coming failure, for instance.

[reohn2]

I'm talking more about the principle. UK democracy is in a very bad way. It is utterly unrepresentative, at the mercy of press barons and dark money. When I hear the argument that 'after Brexit we'll be able to make our own decisions', I look at our parliament and media and I shudder.

Spot on again Bov.

[pwa]

Democracy post Brexit will come down to the maths of the MPs. At the moment the Tories are struggling with a fractured governing party reliant on a fickle partner party. After the next election you think they will run away with a commanding majority? Really? They won't be propped up by large numbers of Brexit Party MPs because, as we already know from the UKIP experience, once Brexit is seen as being in the bag the whole point of the Brexit Party evaporates.

I'm talking more about the principle. UK democracy is in a very bad way. It is utterly unrepresentative, at the mercy of press barons and dark money. When I hear the argument that 'after Brexit we'll be able to make our own decisions', I look at our parliament and media and I shudder.

Press barons? Are we in the 1960s? To some extent you worry too much. I voted Tory at the last election. (Hope you didn't spill your coffee there). I would never vote for a party with Boris at the helm. I am exposed to all those dark forces you imagine and I am 100% not going to vote for a party with that clown in the driving seat. So a few years down the line this one-time Tory voter will be sitting on his hands or voting for a party other than the Tories. I believe there must be significant slice of sometimes Tory support out there for whom Boris is an absolute no-no. He will probably get the tiller for a while, but not for long. As soon as the ballots open he is out.