** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

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Canuk
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by Canuk »

661-Pete wrote:
NATURAL ANKLING wrote:The usual brow beating by the remainers, how easily they are swayed by like thinkers.
Remainers do not need to be 'swayed by like thinkers'. We are all 'like-thinkers' already. In fact we are the only ones who do sit back and think about what we, and the rest, are doing to ourselves.

As to the others - well, as they position themselves on the very edge at Beachy Head - do they actually think about what they're doing? In fact, what thoughts do race through their heads as they plummet towards the rocks below?


I think the time has come (if it hadn't many months ago) to boycott this thread. Its abundantly clear that the majority of those who voted Leave did so with no thought nor reason to it, on a 'gut feeling', as has been aired many times in the same thread.

Therefore these people simply cannot express any reasoning or cogent defence of their arguments because in their own words they've been led like animals to choose one way or the other on 'instinct'.

Brexit Means Brexit is now effectively an oxymoron. After May's humiliating defeat and motions tabled next week to automatically delay Brexit if no deal is reached by the end of February (the most likely outcome) its clear Brexit means nothing at all really, and in all likelihood A50 will be extended ad nauseam into the long grass, till its no longer considered viable or useful to the UK.

By then, most of those who voted with their guts will be long planted in the ground, and there will be few left to shout about its death knell throes. Its just a matter of statistics. Each day 1350 'Leave' votes, in conjunction with new younger voters coming into the electoral system disappear. Saturday 19th January was the day Britain statistically turned 'Remain', (were there to be a 2nd referendum with the same turn out and age related and demographic voting patterns).

They aren't listening. There's no point debating with a 'gut instinct' voter, hence their total lack of any justification.

Time to knock it on the head. 700 pages of wasted breath. And wasted words on electronic paper. Cugel no doubt has a wiser word on it.
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NATURAL ANKLING
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by NATURAL ANKLING »

Hi,
What because you say so!

That's directed to all three of us, some competition.

We all have a right to express our opinions.

Other wise its selective editing / exclusion.
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Cyril Haearn
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by Cyril Haearn »

'Wake me up before you gogo' (Wham)

Speculating about old drivers is much more interesting :wink:
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merseymouth
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by merseymouth »

Hello all, Maybe certain folk believe that only those with Oxbridge 1st's and fully conversant in Latin should be allowed to vote?
So it must be an elitist Ochlocracy that rules, ok!
I think such conditions should be applied to the need to pay taxes, save this ignoramus a few bob :lol: .
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by bovlomov »

merseymouth wrote:Hello all, Maybe certain folk believe that only those with Oxbridge 1st's and fully conversant in Latin should be allowed to vote?

Excluding Oxbridge types from governing wouldn't be a bad start. The absence of May, Johnson, Gove, Rees-Mogg, Osborne and Cameron from the political scene would have spared us this circus. I admit, some good people would be excluded as well, but...

There's a lot of evidence to suggest that bad education crosses all classes and incomes. You only have to look at Parliament to see that elite education produces its fair share of people unable to process complexity or construct coherent arguments.
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by PDQ Mobile »

merseymouth wrote:Hello all, Maybe certain folk believe that only those with Oxbridge 1st's and fully conversant in Latin should be allowed to vote?
So it must be an elitist Ochlocracy that rules, ok!
I think such conditions should be applied to the need to pay taxes, save this ignoramus a few bob :lol: .
IGICB MM

I m curious about your stance on the detail of Brexit.

Do you support a May's deal type of leaving? With a Customs Union etc.

Or would you still support a full hard Brexit?

A full hard Brexit at this late juncture is going to cause a lot of pain to a lot of people. IMV.

What are your preferred options?

And perhaps you could back them up with a short précis of why.
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661-Pete
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by 661-Pete »

merseymouth wrote:Hello all, Maybe certain folk believe that only those with Oxbridge 1st's and fully conversant in Latin should be allowed to vote?
Well - I'm an Oxbridge alumnus (though not with a first). An episode in my life which was not of my own choosing, I hasten to add - but there's no winding back of the clock. And yes I did Latin at school (possibly you did too?). Certainly no way am I 'conversant', though I do find it useful when looking up botanical and zoological names of plants and animals. If there's any value in that apart from nerdism....

So it must be an elitist Ochlocracy that rules, ok!
That's the second time that obscure word has cropped up in recent days! Though I find it hard to understand the coupling with "elitist". Perhaps someone can explain the connection?

I think such conditions should be applied to the need to pay taxes, save this ignoramus a few bob :lol: .
I'd go along with that! Yes indeed the true American ethos "No Taxation without Representation" is just about the only thing left in American thinking which I actually agree with....

I did try reading The Rise of the Meritocracy a few weeks ago - to see if I could glean anything from that book in support of the principle of giving better-informed people more say in the political structure. Sadly, not. The book only made me more depressed. But then, it is meant to be satire....
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kwackers
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by kwackers »

bovlomov wrote:There's a lot of evidence to suggest that bad education crosses all classes and incomes. You only have to look at Parliament to see that elite education produces its fair share of people unable to process complexity or construct coherent arguments.

The main benefit of a good education isn't lernin your subject, it's being taught to think objectively, learning to discount (as best you can) cognitive bias and relying instead on evidence, even if you don't like what the evidence is telling you.

Of course that doesn't mean everyone who's educated to a high standard does this, nor does it mean folk without higher education can't do this plus I've also no idea what happens with art based higher education.
But IME folk with science based higher education generally are more amenable to new ideas and more likely to question their own beliefs.

Of course these days, gut feelings and a lack of competence are a good replacement for experts.
Once we start to accept this and recognise the "wisdom of the common man" it could revolutionise medical science, nuclear physics and even such mundane things like engineering - after all what does experience count when someone who's never used a lathe or mill in their life turns out to know more about them with a simple glance than you do?
merseymouth
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by merseymouth »

Hello all, At the risk of getting sledged again I must comment on the possibility of me having benefited from lessons on Latin in my school?
The benefit of an education including languages other than English certainly escaped me, given that in all my brief time at school I only received a single half hour lesson in French, I was totally bemused at the possibility that a commonplace item such as a table has a gender?
To us scallies English was a second language.
With regards to what knowledge of Latin I possess was occasioned by a desire not to be duped by lawyers, et al :shock: . So my Latin ability marks me down as a "Parvo Absolutis"! Ancient French would be more useful because that is the language of statute in the land.
But one little point about "No taxation without representation", maybe us oinks might be excused the taxation burden if we promise not to vote? :wink: IGICB MM

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bovlomov
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by bovlomov »

kwackers wrote:Of course these days, gut feelings and a lack of competence are a good replacement for experts.
Once we start to accept this and recognise the "wisdom of the common man" it could revolutionise medical science, nuclear physics and even such mundane things like engineering - after all what does experience count when someone who's never used a lathe or mill in their life turns out to know more about them with a simple glance than you do?

The common answer to this is to point to a long list of incidents where the "so called" "so-called experts" got it wrong, from Galileo to The Bank of England.

Personally, I'm all for amateurs sticking their oar in. Sometimes experts can be subject to group-think. Sometimes someone from another background will notice things that those more familiar with the field do not. But to acknowledge professional errors and group-think should mean we automatically give equal status to the views of layman and expert.
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by mjr »

bovlomov wrote:The common answer to this is to point to a long list of incidents where the "so called" "so-called experts" got it wrong, from Galileo to The Bank of England.

Ah, but mostly experts like the Bank of England state alongside their predictions the basis for them and the probability of the prediction being completely wrong, but stupid journalists ignore those bits and then lambast them for "guesses" like the Brexit Broadcasting Corp's Laura Keunssberg did. We could do with a few more experts reporting on this for the news and helping to inform people, instead of always looking for confrontation.
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by mjr »

merseymouth wrote:Hello all, Maybe certain folk believe that only those with Oxbridge 1st's and fully conversant in Latin should be allowed to vote?
So it must be an elitist Ochlocracy that rules, ok!
I think such conditions should be applied to the need to pay taxes, save this ignoramus a few bob :lol: .
IGICB MM

Well, I'm the son of a builder and an office administrator who doesn't know Latin or go to Oxbridge and hardly part of any elite but you don't like my pro-European views either!
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francovendee
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If???

Post by francovendee »

I've been thinking about the narrowness of the referendum result and wonder, had the vote been compulsory to all those eligible to vote would the result still be leave?
I voted remain but think if a compulsory vote was the law then, we would have had a greater margin to leave.
Canuk
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Re: If???

Post by Canuk »

It's not a question of If, but WHEN?

This week will see the tabling (and passing) of two amendments. One to be tabled by the LibDems and the other to be tabled by a labour/tory alliance. The amendment is virtually guaranteed to pass if it gets the support of the Labour front bench, which given their insistence on it, is given.

1. That a vote on a 2md referendum be put before this house before 29th March. (the LibDems have put forward a fast track referendum process guaranteeing a vote before the MEP elections in May).

2. That in the event of no deal being agreed upon by Parliament by the end of February, the UK will unilaterally apply for an A50 extension to allow either time for a General election, or a 2nd referendum.

The clock has run out on May and her deal. The above two amendments mean that Parliament will take back control of the Brexit process.

There's also the option to unilaterally cancel A50 before the 29th.
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661-Pete
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by 661-Pete »

merseymouth wrote:Hello all, At the risk of getting sledged again...
Were you sledged?

With regards to what knowledge of Latin I possess was occasioned by a desire not to be duped by lawyers, et al :shock: . So my Latin ability marks me down as a "Parvo Absolutis"!
So, despite your modesty, you do know some Latin (-ish) phrases after all!

But one little point about "No taxation without representation", maybe us oinks might be excused the taxation burden if we promise not to vote?
I was being somewhat facetious of course.
Suppose that this room is a lift. The support breaks and down we go with ever-increasing velocity.
Let us pass the time by performing physical experiments...
--- Arthur Eddington (creator of the Eddington Number).
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