** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

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meic
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by meic »

Additionally I have still to hear from ANY leaver cogent argument about the benefits of leaving.

There were literally years of these arguments, if you didnt like (or even refused to hear) them fair enough vote to remain just as I did.
Others are likewise free to make their own decisions, they literally and morally do not have any obligation whatsoever to convince or justify their decision to you, me or anybody else. They dont even have to tell you which way they voted.
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meic
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by meic »

Vorpal wrote:
PDQ Mobile wrote: Ask a NHS recruiter.

Or a farmer who depends upon seasonal workers.

Or a would be NHS porter or seasonal worker who now can bargain for better pay without the threat of being replaced by cheaper, better foreign workers.
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by Vorpal »

PDQ Mobile wrote:Additionally I have still to hear from ANY leaver cogent argument about the benefits of leaving.

I think that there are cogent arguments on both sides, even ignoring the issue of immigration.

The arguments to remain outweighed the arguments to leave, in my mind, but I don't think it is reasonable to say that there are no cogent arguments to the leave position.

The biggest to me is the EU is significantly biased in favour of monoculture and corporate farming. I would prefer to design farm subsidies that better suit British farms and encourage better preservation of the environment, etc. (as I have previously argued). The same applies to fishing and forestry. You can dismiss them, if you like, but they could be benefits of leaving. Unfortunately, I see no indication that the UK will positively take advantage of the situation, but that is another issue.
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by Vorpal »

meic wrote:
Vorpal wrote:
PDQ Mobile wrote: Ask a NHS recruiter.

Or a farmer who depends upon seasonal workers.

Or a would be NHS porter or seasonal worker who now can bargain for better pay without the threat of being replaced by cheaper, better foreign workers.

One of the problems with some of the jobs is that either British workers don't want them (seasonal farm workers, assistants in nursing and retirement homes...), or the British education system has not produced enough for the UK (GPs and many medical specialists).

Of course, if education were free, junior doctor pay and conditions better, and GP training less arduous, that might not be the problem that it currently is. Successive governements have made cuts in these areas (or simply failed to make needed improvements), and filled the gaps with immigrants. Elected politicians made the mess, and the mess made Leave look like a good idea to many people. I completely understand that, even if I don't agree with it.
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Mick F
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by Mick F »

meic wrote:
I don't care who resigns or leaves government. They're all as bad as each other and there's a never-ending stream of them.

Ah but as you voted leave you are nothing more than a BJ stooge.

My voting remain, by way of contrast, in no way makes me a Cameron apologist.
What has BJ got to do with my opinion?
I had the opinion before he even entered politics.
Couldn't give a toss about Boris.

Nothing contradictory about my opinions.
I couldn't give a toss about the politicians and what they say or lie.
I never wanted to join in the first place, and I've been saying that since the 1960s.
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reohn2
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by reohn2 »

Mick F wrote: ...I never wanted to join in the first place, and I've been saying that since the 1960s.

Why didn't you want the UK to join ?
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meic
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by meic »

MickF
My statement was blatantly hypocritical but not an uncommon assumption in many such debates.

Mick do you really think that I am hypocritical enough to have meant what I said in that post? :wink:
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meic
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by meic »

is that either British workers don't want them

It isnt that they dont want to do the job, it is that they think it is worth more in return for their labour than they are being offered.

Importing foreign labour allows then to be undercut, strengthening the hand of the employer over the employee in establishing the market value of that labour.
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by Debs »

meic wrote:
Vorpal wrote:
PDQ Mobile wrote: Ask a NHS recruiter.

Or a farmer who depends upon seasonal workers.

Or a would be NHS porter or seasonal worker who now can bargain for better pay without the threat of being replaced by cheaper, better foreign workers.


Or all NHS staff worrying about what it will be like working for a privatised NHS under a Tory Brexit government - expecting conditions to worsen and pay to lower :roll:
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by PDQ Mobile »

Vorpal wrote:
The biggest to me is the EU is significantly biased in favour of monoculture and corporate farming. I would prefer to design farm subsidies that better suit British farms and encourage better preservation of the environment, etc. (as I have previously argued). The same applies to fishing and forestry. You can dismiss them, if you like, but they could be benefits of leaving.


I actually don't think that is the case any more.
There was a period of sheep subsidy here that continued on from a UK based one that led to very high and excessive numbers on the hills of Wales. Very detrimental to woodland regeneration and a diverse flora.
But things have changed and the EU has furthered woodland and diversity far more in the last couple of decades.
Water quality on our beaches is much improved as is the insulation of homes.
IMV this would not have happened without funds and directives from Brussels.
The hated (by the likes of huge landowner Rees Mogg) 3 crop rule is another attempt to improve soil and diversity, as I understand it.

In the end it will come down to how much you are prepared to pay (monetarily) for your cheap food.
And ditto the point from Mike about the NHS.
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meic
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by meic »

Debs wrote:
meic wrote:
Vorpal wrote:Or a farmer who depends upon seasonal workers.

Or a would be NHS porter or seasonal worker who now can bargain for better pay without the threat of being replaced by cheaper, better foreign workers.


Or all NHS staff worrying about what it will be like working for a privatised NHS under a Tory Brexit government - expecting conditions to worsen and pay to lower :roll:

You have inserted the word Brexit there as if it is an integral part of the Tory NHS privatisation plans.
We all know that just like most other Tory privatisation of services it was happening anyway, regardless of which way the referendum went.

It isnt an issue I have looked into in detail but how much EU health provision is not privatised outside of the UK? I though we were the only ones with a state system.
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by Mick F »

reohn2 wrote:
Mick F wrote: ...I never wanted to join in the first place, and I've been saying that since the 1960s.

Why didn't you want the UK to join ?
Because I didn't want to cede our sovereignty away. As far as I could see, the writing was on the wall if we joined. This was back in the 1960s as a young teenager. Still have the same opinion now.

meic wrote:MickF
My statement was blatantly hypocritical but not an uncommon assumption in many such debates.
Mick do you really think that I am hypocritical enough to have meant what I said in that post? :wink:
:lol: :lol:
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meic
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by meic »

Successive governements have made cuts in these areas (or simply failed to make needed improvements), and filled the gaps with immigrants. Elected politicians made the mess, and the mess made Leave look like a good idea to many people. I completely understand that, even if I don't agree with it.

Or all NHS staff worrying about what it will be like working for a privatised NHS under a Tory Brexit government - expecting conditions to worsen and pay to lower :roll:


I have argued that there is a valid argument on the leave side that controlling immigration could force employers and governments to train and pay (more to) existing residents to take up these hard to fill posts.

However I do not believe for one second that this will happen in any future brexit (or remain) scenario. Any immigration restrictions will have a nice little clause written in to allow for the import of cheap labour if needed to "fulfill necessary requirements". Such a clause will be used in a large scale way.
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by mr bajokoses »

PDQ Mobile wrote:But things have changed and the EU has furthered woodland and diversity far more in the last couple of decades.
...
The hated (by the likes of huge landowner Rees Mogg) 3 crop rule is another attempt to improve soil and diversity, as I understand it.


We are led to believe that the EU is incapable of reform.
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by thirdcrank »

A minor hiccup when the newly-appointed Brexit Secretary was talking about the latest Brexit White Paper and it hadn't been delivered. It's not as though a big print-run was needed: hardly anybody there.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politi ... er-arrives
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