** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

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reohn2
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by reohn2 »

Mick F wrote:
reohn2 wrote:
Mick F wrote: ...I never wanted to join in the first place, and I've been saying that since the 1960s.

Why didn't you want the UK to join ?
Because I didn't want to cede our sovereignty away. As far as I could see, the writing was on the wall if we joined. This was back in the 1960s as a young teenager. Still have the same opinion now....


I personally don't think we've ceded anything,in fact the EU IMHO has had a positive effect on the UK in many ways,of course YVMV.
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Debs
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by Debs »

The only obvious thing is busted flush Brexit just isn't going to go the way of supporter of brexit's expectations [ or fairy tale unicorn aspirations ] and any form of Brexit can only be worse for us, all of us, even those who voted Leave and still want too.
I don't know why persistent supporter of brexit leavers don't just shrug their shoulders and accept it. It is so blatantly obvious now.

It could come to a very easy resolve if only they went ahead with a peoples vote, a confirmation vote, and if Brexit is rejected we may carry on with being a member of the EU and receiving the benefits like we have done for decades, and if Leave win [ very unlikely ] we can agree that the UK winning electorate has gone completely bonkers, and we all become losers...
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meic
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by meic »

Leave voters may on the whole agree with you that the government is making a mess of the leave process but they will not see that as a good reason to return to the EU. Just as I didnt like the way the Conservative government was destroying the country before the brexit vote meant we should leave.

Remember that they did go to the EU and try and make a deal for proceeding within the EU and it was dissatisfaction with the deal which David Cameron came back with that pretty much sealed the course to Brexit.

and if Leave win [ very unlikely ]

Did you predict correctly at the moment the campaigning started last time around?

Hardly anybody I can think of around here is a leave voter but my constituency still voted 54% leave.
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pete75
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by pete75 »

meic wrote:
is that either British workers don't want them

It isnt that they dont want to do the job, it is that they think it is worth more in return for their labour than they are being offered.

Importing foreign labour allows then to be undercut, strengthening the hand of the employer over the employee in establishing the market value of that labour.


Is that true? There were few EU migrants here in 1999 when the minimum wage was introduced yet it increased the pay of about 2 million people.
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Vorpal
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by Vorpal »

PDQ Mobile wrote:
Vorpal wrote:
The biggest to me is the EU is significantly biased in favour of monoculture and corporate farming. I would prefer to design farm subsidies that better suit British farms and encourage better preservation of the environment, etc. (as I have previously argued). The same applies to fishing and forestry. You can dismiss them, if you like, but they could be benefits of leaving.


I actually don't think that is the case any more.

The EU have improved in this regard, and have established crop diversity targets (which I believe are being reviewed frequently, as well), but the diversity requirements don't do enough to prevent monoculture, and furthermore, nothing is being done to prevent giant seed companies from exerting monopoly holds on some crops. The EU retains these biases, even if they have learned from earlier mistakes.

In the case of maize, just 5 seed companies control around 75% of the EU market share. In the case of sugar beet, just 4 companies control around 86% of the market and 8 companies together control 99% of EU market.


http://www.agricolturabiodinamica.it/wp ... Europa.pdf
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meic
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by meic »

Pete: I think that imposing a minimum wage changes the market value of labour itself, doesnt it?

It doesnt matter if it is true or not that immigration depresses wages at the lowest end of the labour market, it is very much believed to be the case. There was plenty of chance to persuade people otherwise and I dont think it swayed people.
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PDQ Mobile
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by PDQ Mobile »

Vorpal wrote:
PDQ Mobile wrote:
Vorpal wrote:
The biggest to me is the EU is significantly biased in favour of monoculture and corporate farming. I would prefer to design farm subsidies that better suit British farms and encourage better preservation of the environment, etc. (as I have previously argued). The same applies to fishing and forestry. You can dismiss them, if you like, but they could be benefits of leaving.


I actually don't think that is the case any more.

The EU have improved in this regard, and have established crop diversity targets (which I believe are being reviewed frequently, as well), but the diversity requirements don't do eno
ugh to prevent monoculture, and furthermore, nothing is being done to prevent giant seed companies from exerting monopoly holds on some crops. The EU retains these biases, even if they have learned from earlier mistakes.

In the case of maize, just 5 seed companies control around 75% of the EU market share. In the case of sugar beet, just 4 companies control around 86% of the market and 8 companies together control 99% of EU market.


http://www.agricolturabiodinamica.it/wp ... Europa.pdf


But do you seriously think things will be better if the UK Govt. has the only say?
I for one do not think so. Not one jot.

Look closly at the things I have given as examples of a relatively "green" thinking and sympathetic EU.

That big companies control (mostly!) agriculture will not change unless the UK votes the Greens into power. (And pigs fly over Westminster) The big chemical firms are powerful lobbyists.
We are very far from that political event and even if it did happen the likely increase in the cost of food might well "check" progress in that direction. For there are savings to be made by larger scale.
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by Vorpal »

meic wrote:
is that either British workers don't want them

It isnt that they dont want to do the job, it is that they think it is worth more in return for their labour than they are being offered.


That depends on the job. In the case of some jobs--picking soft fruit is a good example; it's hard, back-breaking labour, paid by quantity--British people mostly don't want to do it. Not enough to get the crops in, anyway. Some students will do it, and a few other people who are able to do that sort of work, and need the money, but not int he quantoty of people needed to get a harvest in.

We might be able to manage to get British workers to do that if seasonal labourers were paid an annual living wage for seasonal work. If, for example, they were paid £20 000 per year, and in exchange, worked very hard for some months during the year (planting, then May - September?), but farmers likely couldn't afford that, and food would become rather more expensive. It could well become cheaper to buy Strawberries flown from Morrocco, than those raised in Essex.
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by Vorpal »

In the meanwhile, applications to study nursing have dropped by 1/3rd over the government elminating the bursary https://www.rcn.org.uk/news-and-events/ ... a-disaster

So, the UK will be even shorter of nurses in coming years, unless the UK.... imports labour :roll:

You couldn't make it up.
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pwa
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by pwa »

Vorpal wrote:In the meanwhile, applications to study nursing have dropped by 1/3rd over the government elminating the bursary https://www.rcn.org.uk/news-and-events/ ... a-disaster

So, the UK will be even shorter of nurses in coming years, unless the UK.... imports labour :roll:

You couldn't make it up.

My son is about to start a nursing course. The answer to long term shortages, like this one, is doing whatever it takes to get people entering the profession. There is a case for dealing with short term shortages through targeted migration, but relying on that long term is just a cop out.
thirdcrank
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by thirdcrank »

pwa wrote: ... My son is about to start a nursing course. The answer to long term shortages, like this one, is doing whatever it takes to get people entering the profession. There is a case for dealing with short term shortages through targeted migration, but relying on that long term is just a cop out.


It seems to have been the way since at least the formation of the NHS, and not only for recruiting nurses.
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meic
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by meic »

Vorpal wrote:
meic wrote:
is that either British workers don't want them

It isnt that they dont want to do the job, it is that they think it is worth more in return for their labour than they are being offered.


That depends on the job. In the case of some jobs--picking soft fruit is a good example; it's hard, back-breaking labour, paid by quantity--British people mostly don't want to do it. Not enough to get the crops in, anyway. Some students will do it, and a few other people who are able to do that sort of work, and need the money, but not int he quantoty of people needed to get a harvest in.

We might be able to manage to get British workers to do that if seasonal labourers were paid an annual living wage for seasonal work. If, for example, they were paid £20 000 per year, and in exchange, worked very hard for some months during the year (planting, then May - September?), but farmers likely couldn't afford that, and food would become rather more expensive. It could well become cheaper to buy Strawberries flown from Morrocco, than those raised in Essex.


The piece rate is too low, it is just another way of having low wages.
I have done those jobs (as an immigrant labourer undercutting the locals) and it is possible for experienced skilled workers to make decent money on the piece rates and that is used to justify a piece rate that means most ordinary people, trying hard, can not make MINIMUM wage.
When you see some of the weekly incomes that these good pickers get, they will have worked a solid 12 hours for seven days to earn that. When I did it, it was on a self-employed basis with none of the other benefits like breaks, sick pay, holiday pay, pension etc.
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by Vorpal »

I've done it as well. Some summers when I was in my late teens and early 20s, and still in school. It was a reasonable summer job. It was in the US, but the situation isn't so different there. Migrant workers mostly come from Latin America. It was hard as a student to compete with experienced pickers.

The other problem with seasonal labour is, of course, that it's seasonal. People who can, prefer more security.
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pwa
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by pwa »

thirdcrank wrote:
pwa wrote: ... My son is about to start a nursing course. The answer to long term shortages, like this one, is doing whatever it takes to get people entering the profession. There is a case for dealing with short term shortages through targeted migration, but relying on that long term is just a cop out.


It seems to have been the way since at least the formation of the NHS, and not only for recruiting nurses.

But why can't we train enough doctors to meet our needs. Getting in to medicine at Uni is still difficult, so it is not due to a lack of applicants. Is it just that it is cheaper to buy the finished product from another country rather than train homegrown talent?
thirdcrank
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by thirdcrank »

pwa wrote: ... But why can't we train enough doctors to meet our needs. Getting in to medicine at Uni is still difficult, so it is not due to a lack of applicants. Is it just that it is cheaper to buy the finished product from another country rather than train homegrown talent?


A lot of our finished product follows the money to places like the US and Oz.
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