** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

[PDQ Mobile]

Most people aren't idiots. There's a lot of bad education, but that cuts across all demographics.

well I think you are trading on the association of "education" with some thing being done to you by an educator? so if you receive a faulty education its not your fault?
<snip>
SO I think the claim of idiots still hold. The sign of Intelligence is a willingness to change your views.

Well, perhaps it's a matter of definition. I don't believe most people are incapable of comprehending these things. But why don't they?

It is partly to do with school education. Most of us, for generations, have left school with no understanding of the things that would help us see through the propaganda. With little grasp of logic (especially common logical fallacies), statistics, basic maths, language, psychology, the physical world, we are vulnerable. And while we may learn some of those defences in adult life, it might not be enough to counter the tsunami of misinformation and psychological manipulation that we face each day.

That covers all classes and income groups. Even most of the people on the winning side are victims of poor education (look at Rees Mogg!). Their ignorance and delusion happens to be working in their favour, but most give no impression of understanding the mechanisms.

Rees Mogg!!
And Johnson himself too.

Yep narrowly educated to believe the old Colonial Britain had worth beyond all logic and humanity.
Queen and Country above any social responsibility.
Money the only God.
Strongest takes all.

In some ways laudable patriotism, of course, but badly informed about a wider and ever more complex world.

Give me a man with some self doubt any day.

[bovlomov]

Give me a man with some self doubt any day.

If they do those lessons at Eton, attendance must be voluntary.

[kwackers]

Rees Mogg!!
And Johnson himself too.

There's a saying I've heard (but can't remember exactly) which goes something like:
"If you don't know what you're talking about then talk posh"
Which seems apt.

Apparently people tend to think folk with posh accents are more competent than those without.
Don't know if it's true but it does have the 'ring' of possibility about it.

[Mike Sales]

These public school boys are deprived of a normal childhood too, as well as being taught too much Latin instead of a modern education.

[bovlomov]

These public school boys are deprived of a normal childhood too, as well as being taught too much Latin instead of a modern education.

I'm not sure whether even their Latin is up to scratch. Sure, they know a few aphorisms, but is there any evidence that they really understand it? Judging by the recent documentary, Johnson's French isn't nearly as good as he thinks it is.

It is telling that Rees Mogg's favourite book is a book of quotations. That's it is a nutshell. He likes to learn witty lines that he can drop into speeches, rather than doing any of the brainwork required to build ideas from the foundations.

[PDQ Mobile]

Rees Mogg!!
And Johnson himself too.

There's a saying I've heard (but can't remember exactly) which goes something like:
"If you don't know what you're talking about then talk posh"
Which seems apt.

Apparently people tend to think folk with posh accents are more competent than those without.
Don't know if it's true but it does have the 'ring' of possibility about it.

In another life I took an interest in linguistics.
There is research that shows the RP accent is the most favoured on the ear of all the UK dialects.
I do not have a citation to hand.

It has the additional benefit of helping to convince the listener that the speaker is knowledgable and honest.
If you want to successfully sell your car cultivate your RP pronunciation!
It is an often observable effect, in media interviews.

Considered by some to be related to the long and historical wielding of power by the classes that use such an accent. A sort of verbal "cap doffing"!!

"Brummie" is one of least favoured nationally.
Scots is quite highly favoured.

[mercalia]

Most people aren't idiots. There's a lot of bad education, but that cuts across all demographics.

well I think you are trading on the association of "education" with some thing being done to you by an educator? so if you receive a faulty education its not your fault?
<snip>
SO I think the claim of idiots still hold. The sign of Intelligence is a willingness to change your views.

Well, perhaps it's a matter of definition. I don't believe most people are incapable of comprehending these things. But why don't they?

It is partly to do with school education. Most of us, for generations, have left school with no understanding of the things that would help us see through the propaganda. With little grasp of logic (especially common logical fallacies), statistics, basic maths, language, psychology, the physical world, we are vulnerable. And while we may learn some of those defences in adult life, it might not be enough to counter the tsunami of misinformation and psychological manipulation that we face each day.

That covers all classes and income groups. Even most of the people on the winning side are victims of poor education (look at Rees Mogg!). Their ignorance and delusion happens to be working in their favour, but most give no impression of understanding the mechanisms.

I am not sure you need to understand them in any detail. just get the gist. many things I mentioned are just plain simple facts or events, that together should create doubts. At the referendum time yes it was trying to work out who to believe, and that was impossible, would have required specialist knowledge all about probablities. But now where have we got to - a PM threatening to by pass Parliament some stories saying if there is a no confidence vote he will set the GE to be AFTER October 31st and Brexit! I dont know about you my guts are starting to churn. I wasnt a politcially aware person until the crash but am increasingly getting alarmed at whats going on with serious doubts about fellow citizens, thats its all Animal Farm

[bovlomov]

am increasingly getting alarmed at whats going on with serious doubts about fellow citizens

So am I, and so do I, but I'm not sure idiocy is the primary cause. It's down to terrible judgement. Still - that's a mere detail. The result is the same.

[bovlomov]

"Brummie" is one of least favoured nationally.

I don't know why.

Scots is quite highly favoured.

Yes, and there was a period when every financial scheme, every pension and every health scam was advertised with a reassuring Scottish (not Glasgow) accent. I developed a rather Pavlovian response to it, and whenever I heard a voice like that, I assumed it would be attached to some kind of fraud.

[PDQ Mobile]

"Brummie" is one of least favoured nationally.

I don't know why.

Scots is quite highly favoured.

Yes, and there was a period when every financial scheme, every pension and every health scam was advertised with a reassuring Scottish (not Glasgow) accent. I developed a rather Pavlovian response to it, and whenever I heard a voice like that, I assumed it would be attached to some kind of fraud.

Bit like me and RP then!!

The effect is of course broadly unconscious.

However it probably has some effect.
Throw in the "last word" and maybe the the effect is doubled.

[PDQ Mobile]

As an edit.
Have a listen to one Mr Cummins.
He was born and educated in Durham.
Accent is mostly acquired in the years up to around ten or twelve.
It can be one of the hardest parts (to lose it) in learning a new language.

Cummins subsequently went to Oxford.

He retains but little trace of his NE roots.
He is, as the art of persuasion and propaganda expert, well aware of the RP effect and his diction now reflects that.
It is a conscience and deliberate effort.

[661-Pete]

These public school boys are deprived of a normal childhood too, as well as being taught too much Latin instead of a modern education.

I'm not sure whether even their Latin is up to scratch. Sure, they know a few aphorisms, but is there any evidence that they really understand it?

I'll have you know, not only did I do Latin at school, but I can understand it perfectly. Here: I can prove it:

Caesar adsum jam forte, Brutus aderat.
Caesar sic in omnibus, Brutus sic in at.

And there's more where that came from...

[pete75]

These public school boys are deprived of a normal childhood too, as well as being taught too much Latin instead of a modern education.

I'm not sure whether even their Latin is up to scratch. Sure, they know a few aphorisms, but is there any evidence that they really understand it? Judging by the recent documentary, Johnson's French isn't nearly as good as he thinks it is.

It is telling that Rees Mogg's favourite book is a book of quotations. That's it is a nutshell. He likes to learn witty lines that he can drop into speeches, rather than doing any of the brainwork required to build ideas from the foundations.

As someone once said about someone else "he relies on his memory for his wit and his imagination for his facts"

[pete75]

However I take exception to merc's using the words "lower class idiots". As bowedw did - and surely others on this forum. Whichever 'side' we're on, we won't get anywhere by hurling insults at those we disagree with...

There are idiots in every social class or do you think there are none in the lower social class?

You know perfectly well what merc meant by using those words - and what I meant by objecting to their use. Conflating those voters, of whatever social class, who voted for Brexit, with "idiots", however indirectly, would serve only to make me many enemies - as it will you.

On the other hand, I have no compunctions about calling certain of our politicians, "idiots". These are individuals who have taken on a responsibility: if they fail to live up to that responsibility, it's their look-out.

Of course I disagree with Brexit supporters. There are civilised ways of showing one's disagreement.

So you're attacking me because my interpretation of what he said differs from yours? I guess in your world everyone should think the same.

[horizon]

Just a little reminder to everyone that time is running out. Bogdanor, Sumption and Cummings reckon that there is no way legally, politically or constitutionally of stopping a no-deal Brexit on October 31st. That's less than 90 days. So here's the list (and I wouldn't wait until the shelves are cleared):

Flour
Yeast
Baked beans (multi-pack)
Loo rolls
Porridge oats
Tinned soups
Sugar
Full tank of petrol/diesel
Candles
Some good books

Anything I've missed?