** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Use this board for general non-cycling-related chat, or to introduce yourself to the forum.
Stevek76
Posts: 2085
Joined: 28 Jul 2015, 11:23am

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by Stevek76 »

NATURAL ANKLING wrote:In law we never had to sign article 50.

We could just leave, then notify the EU.

We alone would decide what or not to pay...................


notify under, not sign. Regardless the UK did sign and ratify the relevant EU treaters so in a strict international law sense, yes it does have to use the formal methods. Obviously being a sovereign country it could decide not to, but such actions aren't exactly going to put the UK in a good light when its looking for trade deals with other countries.

UK law is democratic (as much as it can get) EU is not!


UK law is as democratic as it gets, really? We have a lower house elected by an antiquated FPTP voting system which means people in safe seats have much reduced voting power (e.g. I'm in a labour seat so safe that even when May called the last election and the polls had 17% tory leads it was expected to stay labour). Where the votes in the most marginal constituencies are effectively worth 30 times more than the votes in the safest, this is pretty obvious at election time. Live in a marginal? Pretty much every senior politician will visit at some point. Safe one like mine? *tumbleweed*.

Meanwhile the upper house is entirely unelected and has 92 members as a by-product of birth, and 24 from beliefs in the unprovable. The rest are supposed to be effectively nominated on merit but in reality have many members who are there because they donated money to a party. The UK, particularly England also has one of the most over centralised power structures of any western democracy.


I'm struggling to see how the EU is less democratic?

The commission is comprised of someone from each member state, that someone is sent by the, democratically elected, government of each state. The commission has to be approved by the EU parliament.

The council of ministers is comprised of a representative minister from the, democratically elected, government of each member state (the ministers tend to vary based on what is being considered)

The EU parliament is directly democratically elected by citizens of EU member states by a proportional system.

A commonly levelled complaint is that the EU parliament is not a real one because it cannot make it's own laws as only the commission, under the direction of member states, initiates any regulation or directive. However that is a rather disingenuous red herring. In Westminster it's effectively the same. In theory, MPs can introduce private member's bills but the reality is that, unless such a bill has government (i.e. executive) support (in which case it might as well be a government bill) it'll do nothing but waste a bit of time while it gets filibustered out in a private member's bills session. There are plenty of soft power routes for the EU parliament to exert pressure on the commission if something has popular support so it's not really any different.

Both the council and parliament can amend or reject entirely any proposed regulation or directive from the commission.
The contents of this post, unless otherwise stated, are opinions of the author and may actually be complete codswallop
Cyril Haearn
Posts: 15215
Joined: 30 Nov 2013, 11:26am

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by Cyril Haearn »

Scores of seats in the EU parliament will soon be free
A great chance to downsize and save €€€
Entertainer, juvenile, curmudgeon, PoB, 30120
Cycling-of course, but it is far better on a Gillott
We love safety cameras, we hate bullies
Psamathe
Posts: 17650
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by Psamathe »

Stevek76 wrote:.....
UK law is as democratic as it gets, really? We have a lower house elected by an antiquated FPTP voting system which means people in safe seats have much reduced voting power ....

Meanwhile the upper house is entirely unelected and has 92 members as a by-product of birth, and 24 from beliefs in the unprovable. The rest are supposed to be effectively nominated on merit but in reality have many members who are there because they donated money to a party. The UK, particularly England also has one of the most over centralised power structures of any western democracy.


I'm struggling to see how the EU is less democratic?
......

And we have a Government that will fight through the courts (paid for by taxpayers) to fight to avoid having to take major decisions before or democratically elected Parliament!

Ian
Vorpal
Moderator
Posts: 20700
Joined: 19 Jan 2009, 3:34pm
Location: Not there ;)

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by Vorpal »

NATURAL ANKLING wrote:UK law is democratic (as much as it can get) EU is not!

The EU, not being a counry, is not indexed by the Economist Intelligence Unit https://www.eiu.com/topic/democracy-index

But if the EU were not democratic, how would it be possible for a number of EU members to rank among the most democratic nations on Earth?
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
Debs
Posts: 1335
Joined: 19 May 2017, 7:05pm
Location: Powys

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by Debs »

Image
User avatar
661-Pete
Posts: 10593
Joined: 22 Nov 2012, 8:45pm
Location: Sussex

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by 661-Pete »

Plenty more where that came from:
Image
Image
Suppose that this room is a lift. The support breaks and down we go with ever-increasing velocity.
Let us pass the time by performing physical experiments...
--- Arthur Eddington (creator of the Eddington Number).
mercalia
Posts: 14630
Joined: 22 Sep 2013, 10:03pm
Location: london South

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by mercalia »

whats a postage stamp? not sure If I have used one within living memory
mercalia
Posts: 14630
Joined: 22 Sep 2013, 10:03pm
Location: london South

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by mercalia »

well the EU shouldnt depend on the Germans to defend them when the UK leaves the EU?

"Poland's right-wing Prime Minister Mateusz Morawiecki suggested on Thursday, on the eve of a visit to Berlin, that Germany is a NATO "free rider" that spends too little on collective defence"

https://www.thelocal.de/20180215/germany-not-very-ready-to-take-over-natos-very-ready-task-force
broadway
Posts: 788
Joined: 9 Mar 2010, 1:49pm
Location: Cheshire

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by broadway »

mercalia wrote:well the EU shouldnt depend on the Germans to defend them when the UK leaves the EU?

"Poland's right-wing Prime Minister Mateusz Morawiecki suggested on Thursday, on the eve of a visit to Berlin, that Germany is a NATO "free rider" that spends too little on collective defence"

https://www.thelocal.de/20180215/germany-not-very-ready-to-take-over-natos-very-ready-task-force


Oooh, those terrible Germans....again.
pete75
Posts: 16370
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by pete75 »

mercalia wrote:well the EU shouldnt depend on the Germans to defend them when the UK leaves the EU?

"Poland's right-wing Prime Minister Mateusz Morawiecki suggested on Thursday, on the eve of a visit to Berlin, that Germany is a NATO "free rider" that spends too little on collective defence"

https://www.thelocal.de/20180215/germany-not-very-ready-to-take-over-natos-very-ready-task-force


Yes - Germany only spends four times as much as Poland on defence. Seems like it's not Germany that's getting the free ride.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
User avatar
661-Pete
Posts: 10593
Joined: 22 Nov 2012, 8:45pm
Location: Sussex

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by 661-Pete »

broadway wrote:Oooh, those terrible Germans....again.
Ja - don't menshun ze var! I did it once but I think I got away with it....
Suppose that this room is a lift. The support breaks and down we go with ever-increasing velocity.
Let us pass the time by performing physical experiments...
--- Arthur Eddington (creator of the Eddington Number).
PDQ Mobile
Posts: 4659
Joined: 2 Aug 2015, 4:40pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by PDQ Mobile »

661-Pete wrote:I did it once but I think I got away with it....[/i]


I saw it but kept stumm!
Ben@Forest
Posts: 3647
Joined: 28 Jan 2013, 5:58pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by Ben@Forest »

pete75 wrote:Yes - Germany only spends four times as much as Poland on defence. Seems like it's not Germany that's getting the free ride.


But Poland spends 2% of its GDP on defence, as per the NATO requirement, Germany doesn't. Given Poland's recent history you can see why they might be aggrieved that the Germans are not doing what they signed up to do.
PDQ Mobile
Posts: 4659
Joined: 2 Aug 2015, 4:40pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by PDQ Mobile »

So often referred to as "defence"!
It's a blanket term that covers a lot of "offence" too.
It's pricey stuff, "offence"!

Personally I'm not convinced it's value for money as defence or offence.
I would rather see a lot more spent on infrastucture and social stuff.
I think I'm with the Germans on this one.
pete75
Posts: 16370
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by pete75 »

Ben@Forest wrote:
pete75 wrote:Yes - Germany only spends four times as much as Poland on defence. Seems like it's not Germany that's getting the free ride.


But Poland spends 2% of its GDP on defence, as per the NATO requirement, Germany doesn't. Given Poland's recent history you can see why they might be aggrieved that the Germans are not doing what they signed up to do.


The article says the 2% is insisted upon by Donald Trump. If that is the case then good on the Germans for not sticking to it.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
Locked