** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

[Psamathe]

Trade deals should not be linked to migration. They weren't in the past and they should not be now.

Depends on the sort of deal you are seeking. e.g. Deal including services so a UK company can bid for a e.g. German Government contract but German Gov want a German company so refuses entry to the UK staff necessary so the UK company cannot do the job. Or e.g. Spanish company wants to bid to e.g. provide a control system for HS2 but outcry in UK wanting "British Jobs ..." so government refuses work visas to staff of the Spanish company so thy can't undertake the contract. the EU 4 freedoms all relate to each other.

Trade deals are about each party seeking benefit for themselves. As politicians are the ones negotiating/agreeing these deals their main priority is votes so e.g. an Indian politician getting the UK to accept more immigration from India may well be able to improve his standing and thus electoral prospects.

Ian

[Flinders]

Those politicians will try to blame others e.g. sabotage by Remain MP/weak leadership/the EU punishing us/etc. but bottom line is many will not get what motivated them to vote "leave" and so will be unhappy "I didn't get what I wanted and I got a whole load of other bad stuff!" and that comes down to UK politicians promising things they could never deliver and many voters will eventually appreciate that and who did it.

I suspect some will be happy, but the vast majority won't be because what the various things the Leave campaigners were offering were completely contradictory and impossible to deliver all things to all people.

It's almost like there should be some law against securing votes by use of corrupt practices... a real, enforced one, I mean

Given how our MPs are bought and sold every day by large companies, including health companies, that's just par for the course here.

[mjr]

A substantial number as evidenced by incidents the press jumped on and reported? If I paraphrase correctly, then I think that logic/deduction may be flawed.

No, evidenced by what I saw and heard around the fens. I don't think the press reported the half of what went on. It didn't fit the Murdoch-Rothermere-Desmond narrative.

Let me paraphrase again then. You extrapolated an unrepresentative area of the UK more broadly.

No, I only said the number was substantial. I didn't extrapolate or claim it's national, as I know the fens included several of the Leave-voting-est districts in England, which was itself more Leave than the rest of the UK. It still exists, though.

[Bonefishblues]

Thank you for the clarification.

[pwa]

Trade deals should not be linked to migration. They weren't in the past and they should not be now.

Depends on the sort of deal you are seeking. e.g. Deal including services so a UK company can bid for a e.g. German Government contract but German Gov want a German company so refuses entry to the UK staff necessary so the UK company cannot do the job. Or e.g. Spanish company wants to bid to e.g. provide a control system for HS2 but outcry in UK wanting "British Jobs ..." so government refuses work visas to staff of the Spanish company so thy can't undertake the contract. the EU 4 freedoms all relate to each other.

Trade deals are about each party seeking benefit for themselves. As politicians are the ones negotiating/agreeing these deals their main priority is votes so e.g. an Indian politician getting the UK to accept more immigration from India may well be able to improve his standing and thus electoral prospects.

Ian

I'd see no problem with work visas for staff of a company that has won a contract to do a job here, so long as the skills are specialist. But that is not the same as giving someone the right to stay long term. All sorts of complications in the details, of course.

But a blanket open door to all citizens of one country to move to another if they choose should not be part of any deal we do. I think we can see where that approach has got us.

[Bonefishblues]

Trade deals should not be linked to migration. They weren't in the past and they should not be now.

Depends on the sort of deal you are seeking. e.g. Deal including services so a UK company can bid for a e.g. German Government contract but German Gov want a German company so refuses entry to the UK staff necessary so the UK company cannot do the job. Or e.g. Spanish company wants to bid to e.g. provide a control system for HS2 but outcry in UK wanting "British Jobs ..." so government refuses work visas to staff of the Spanish company so thy can't undertake the contract. the EU 4 freedoms all relate to each other.

Trade deals are about each party seeking benefit for themselves. As politicians are the ones negotiating/agreeing these deals their main priority is votes so e.g. an Indian politician getting the UK to accept more immigration from India may well be able to improve his standing and thus electoral prospects.

Ian

I'd see no problem with work visas for staff of a company that has won a contract to do a job here, so long as the skills are specialist. But that is not the same as giving someone the right to stay long term. All sorts of complications in the details, of course.

But a blanket open door to all citizens of one country to move to another if they choose should not be part of any deal we do. I think we can see where that approach has got us.

It was all going so well until that last sentence

[pwa]

Depends on the sort of deal you are seeking. e.g. Deal including services so a UK company can bid for a e.g. German Government contract but German Gov want a German company so refuses entry to the UK staff necessary so the UK company cannot do the job. Or e.g. Spanish company wants to bid to e.g. provide a control system for HS2 but outcry in UK wanting "British Jobs ..." so government refuses work visas to staff of the Spanish company so thy can't undertake the contract. the EU 4 freedoms all relate to each other.

Trade deals are about each party seeking benefit for themselves. As politicians are the ones negotiating/agreeing these deals their main priority is votes so e.g. an Indian politician getting the UK to accept more immigration from India may well be able to improve his standing and thus electoral prospects.

Ian

I'd see no problem with work visas for staff of a company that has won a contract to do a job here, so long as the skills are specialist. But that is not the same as giving someone the right to stay long term. All sorts of complications in the details, of course.

But a blanket open door to all citizens of one country to move to another if they choose should not be part of any deal we do. I think we can see where that approach has got us.

It was all going so well until that last sentence

Just a raking of the embers before I walk away and leave you to it.

[mjr]

But a blanket open door to all citizens of one country to move to another if they choose should not be part of any deal we do. I think we can see where that approach has got us.

It was all going so well until that last sentence

Indeed. People might like to look at what the EU's freedom of movement of workers actually is, rather than continue thinking that it's "a blanket open door" (whatever that is - an open door made from a blanket?). https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Consolid ... nd_Capital

[Stevek76]

When you deduct emigrants from immigrants you get a quarter of a million extra people. That is a lot. The EU knew about concern over that in the UK, and when Cameron went to them to get what they could offer in ways to deal with that they gave him next to nothing. I made my choice at that time, because of their stance.

Given that Cameron wasn't even using the existing controls available (that I've listed a couple of times in this thread now) and had expressed no intention or desire to even do so it was perhaps that they saw him as the useless PR man he was and gave him the short shrift he deserved. Ultimately somewhat self defeating perhaps but then likely so will the leave vote so

Also regarding the quarter of a million, does anyone actually know what the real figure is? There's been claims that this is wildly under or overestimating the actual number because it is simply based on a rolling survey undertaken at country entrances/exits rather than actual raw data. If net migration really was running at the official stats (which was over 300k at points recently), given the housebuilding rate since the financial crisis, along with natural population growth and the continuing reduction in occupancy rates due to social change the housing problem would surely be much worse.

[Psamathe]

....
Given that Cameron wasn't even using the existing controls available......

Very relevant point. The main reason I had to return to the UK from living in France was because France started a stricter implementation of some of the EU Freedom of Movement rules - rules the UK never really even considered implementing.

We seem to have gone down a damaging route without even trying to sort out the issues without the damaging "leave the EU".

Cameron (brain the size of a small pea, those petit pois ones) always was a good illustration that an expensive education does not create even an average person. When you say "Cameron failed" the relevant word is "Cameron". It does not mean that we could not have addressed the issues, just that Cameron was not up to the job (e.g. start by implementing the existing rules to tighten things).

Ian

[reohn2]

I agree with you pwa.

You two are thinking rational people,there are many that aren't.....

I think more of us are than aren't. There is still a widespread decency in people on both sides of this debate, sometimes masked by the antics of the nutters on the fringe. I have spoken to other Leave voters who feel, as I do, that migrants already here are, by and large, good people who fit in and should be made to feel welcome.

Thinking isn't knowing though is it?
I have overheard some remarkable negative conversations and debated with some utterly biased people with regard to immigrants,with views from stealing our jobs to downright racism because of skin colour,accented speech,dress or religion,and all from the lips and minds of seemingly ordinary well adjusted people.

Edited for clarity.

[Flinders]

You two are thinking rational people,there are many that aren't.....

I think more of us are than aren't. There is still a widespread decency in people on both sides of this debate, sometimes masked by the antics of the nutters on the fringe. I have spoken to other Leave voters who feel, as I do, that migrants already here are, by and large, good people who fit in and should be made to feel welcome.

Thinking isn't knowing though is it?
I have overheard some remarkable negative conversations and debated with some utterly biased people with regard to immigrants,with views from stealing our jobs to downright racism because of skin colour,accented speach,dress or religion,from the lips and minds of seemingly ordinary well adjusted people.

I've seen the same. It has caused me to rethink my attitudes to those people a lot.

[reohn2]

I admit I try, and also guilty as charged of generally trying to impute the best motives in people, and certainly guilty of trying to counteract some of the lazy and usually unhelpful stereotyping of the "opposition" by either "side". I think that most people are fundamentally decent, even where their views differ.

I've just started a thread about surgeons who tattoo their patients on the inside of their bodies without their consent.
Based on a current news story,after listing to the JV phone in on R2,it seems,going off the callers it's quite reasonable for a surgeon like any "artist" to sign his work,those callers would term themselves as reasonable decent citizens with balanced views.
I think those people are unbalanced to think the way they do........

[Psamathe]

I think more of us are than aren't. There is still a widespread decency in people on both sides of this debate, sometimes masked by the antics of the nutters on the fringe. I have spoken to other Leave voters who feel, as I do, that migrants already here are, by and large, good people who fit in and should be made to feel welcome.

Thinking isn't knowing though is it?
I have overheard some remarkable negative conversations and debated with some utterly biased people with regard to immigrants,with views from stealing our jobs to downright racism because of skin colour,accented speach,dress or religion,from the lips and minds of seemingly ordinary well adjusted people.

I've seen the same. It has caused me to rethink my attitudes to those people a lot.

The whole debacle has made me think about whether the UK is the sort of country I want to live in - now seriously considering moving to another EU country before March 2019. I suspect EU member states after March 2019 will be treating British expats somewhat better than the UK will be treating people from other EU countries living in the UK.

Ian

[mjr]

I suspect EU member states after March 2019 will be treating British expats somewhat better than the UK will be treating people from other EU countries living in the UK.

I don't share your confidence in our government's inability to micturate other EU countries off so much that they retaliate against UK immigrants.