** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

[pwa]

It isnt that they dont want to do the job, it is that they think it is worth more in return for their labour than they are being offered.

That depends on the job. In the case of some jobs--picking soft fruit is a good example; it's hard, back-breaking labour, paid by quantity--British people mostly don't want to do it. Not enough to get the crops in, anyway. Some students will do it, and a few other people who are able to do that sort of work, and need the money, but not int he quantoty of people needed to get a harvest in.

We might be able to manage to get British workers to do that if seasonal labourers were paid an annual living wage for seasonal work. If, for example, they were paid £20 000 per year, and in exchange, worked very hard for some months during the year (planting, then May - September?), but farmers likely couldn't afford that, and food would become rather more expensive. It could well become cheaper to buy Strawberries flown from Morrocco, than those raised in Essex.

The piece rate is too low, it is just another way of having low wages.
I have done those jobs (as an immigrant labourer undercutting the locals) and it is possible for experienced skilled workers to make decent money on the piece rates and that is used to justify a piece rate that means most ordinary people, trying hard, can not make MINIMUM wage.
When you see some of the weekly incomes that these good pickers get, they will have worked a solid 12 hours for seven days to earn that. When I did it, it was on a self-employed basis with none of the other benefits like breaks, sick pay, holiday pay, pension etc.

Completely off topic, but something that amuses me. My student daughter earns money by being an extra in TV productions. Yesterday she earned about £140 for walking around in the background during shots for a Welsh language production. Then as she was about to go home she got an urgent call to go to another studio where a TV drama is in production and she earned a further £170 for two and a half hours of strolling around in a costume. A nice little earner, but not regular.

[pwa]

... But why can't we train enough doctors to meet our needs. Getting in to medicine at Uni is still difficult, so it is not due to a lack of applicants. Is it just that it is cheaper to buy the finished product from another country rather than train homegrown talent?

A lot of our finished product follows the money to places like the US and Oz.

It would be interesting to know how that balances out. Are we training enough doctors and just having "losses" through emigration made up for by "gains" through immigration? If that were the case I would see that as balanced and healthy.

[meic]

Balanced and healthy for us in the middle of the chain.
Not so balanced for those at the start and the end of the chain.

[pwa]

Balanced and healthy for us in the middle of the chain.
Not so balanced for those at the start and the end of the chain.

You mean poorer countries losing their medical professionals to the West?

[meic]

Yes.

[mercalia]

That depends on the job. In the case of some jobs--picking soft fruit is a good example; it's hard, back-breaking labour, paid by quantity--British people mostly don't want to do it. Not enough to get the crops in, anyway. Some students will do it, and a few other people who are able to do that sort of work, and need the money, but not int he quantoty of people needed to get a harvest in.

We might be able to manage to get British workers to do that if seasonal labourers were paid an annual living wage for seasonal work. If, for example, they were paid £20 000 per year, and in exchange, worked very hard for some months during the year (planting, then May - September?), but farmers likely couldn't afford that, and food would become rather more expensive. It could well become cheaper to buy Strawberries flown from Morrocco, than those raised in Essex.

The piece rate is too low, it is just another way of having low wages.
I have done those jobs (as an immigrant labourer undercutting the locals) and it is possible for experienced skilled workers to make decent money on the piece rates and that is used to justify a piece rate that means most ordinary people, trying hard, can not make MINIMUM wage.
When you see some of the weekly incomes that these good pickers get, they will have worked a solid 12 hours for seven days to earn that. When I did it, it was on a self-employed basis with none of the other benefits like breaks, sick pay, holiday pay, pension etc.

Completely off topic, but something that amuses me. My student daughter earns money by being an extra in TV productions. Yesterday she earned about £140 for walking around in the background during shots for a Welsh language production. Then as she was about to go home she got an urgent call to go to another studio where a TV drama is in production and she earned a further £170 for two and a half hours of strolling around in a costume. A nice little earner, but not regular.

I hope she has one of those companies that her pay goes to that pays her back so she dont pay any tax?

[stu1102]

you may (no pun intended)be aware that the UK economy is predicated on services (80%) there is a no deal on offer for services in the white paper guess what;

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-44805565

The will of the 37%

but there's more

Interested to work at our Lloyd's Brussels subsidiary? We're currently recruiting for a variety of actuarial and financial roles. Apply now to be part of our new team: http://ow.ly/4NG030kE5Lr #LloydsBrussels



isn't this wonderful news for the will of the people who wanted to take back control

[meic]

I imagine the average leave voter will be just about as interested in this as the average remain voter was concerned about the concerns of the leave voters prior to them flexing their democratic muscles.

There was a chance to have a discussion about all this before the referendum.
I found that the attempts to communicate such issues were flawed and incomplete.

They went typically like this.

"I am voting leave because of ........."
"Racist scum!"

admittedly it has now improved to be more like this.

"I am still voting leave because ......"
"because you are too stupid to understand"

Guess what, they are now thoroughly entrenched and not listening to a word anybody "remain" says.
Especially when it is delivered in the tone of the last post (no pun intended).

[stu1102]

I imagine the average leave voter will be just about as interested in this as the average remain voter was concerned about the concerns of the leave voters prior to them flexing their democratic muscles.

Just curious can you articulate the arguments with evidence of the benefits of leave and please note 'most remain voters would be as be like you less concerned with generalised statements about taking back control, etc so over to you can you point the forum to the empirical evidence of the benefits of leave for example in the Governments deprivation report on Wales were they cited Caerphilly (twice) , Rhyl (twice), Tylorstown, and Caerau near Maesteg as areas with the most deprivation and poverty

so can you provide evidence as to how these areas will benefit from Brexit

[roubaixtuesday]

There was a chance to have a discussion about all this before the referendum.

Sure.

And there's another chance to discuss it for the next twenty years whilst we sort out the detailed consequences.

Don't like it? Blame leave voters.

[meic]

There was a chance to have a discussion about all this before the referendum.

Sure.

And there's another chance to discuss it for the next twenty years whilst we sort out the detailed consequences.

Don't like it? Blame leave voters.

Not that, just saying it is too late now.
The chance at the time was squandered.
This forum isnt actually discussing it anyway, almost all the leave voters have got fed up with being insulted and now just read it or ignore it.

[meic]

I imagine the average leave voter will be just about as interested in this as the average remain voter was concerned about the concerns of the leave voters prior to them flexing their democratic muscles.

Just curious can you articulate the arguments with evidence of the benefits of leave and please note 'most remain voters would be as be like you less concerned with generalised statements about taking back control, etc so over to you can you point the forum to the empirical evidence of the benefits of leave for example in the Governments deprivation report on Wales were they cited Caerphilly (twice) , Rhyl (twice), Tylorstown, and Caerau near Maesteg as areas with the most deprivation and poverty

so can you provide evidence as to how these areas will benefit from Brexit

Have you totally missed the point?
Why are you asking a remain voter to argue the benefits of leave?
Is it that anybody who shows the slightest deviation must be on the other side?
The question isnt a genuine question any way, it is just a way of making your point and expecting others to let you lead the agenda.

My line of questioning would be which way did those constituencies vote in the referendum and why did they vote that way despite having been told before the referendum that it wasnt in their own interests.
I would hazard a totally unevidenced answer that they did so because those pushing them to vote leave appeared to listen to them and respect them. Too many of those who told then to remain didnt listen, actively silenced them and insulted them (and are still not listening and are still insulting).

[Vorpal]

In the meanwhile, applications to study nursing have dropped by 1/3rd over the government eliminating the bursary https://www.rcn.org.uk/news-and-events/ ... a-disaster

So, the UK will be even shorter of nurses in coming years, unless the UK.... imports labour

You couldn't make it up.

My son is about to start a nursing course. The answer to long term shortages, like this one, is doing whatever it takes to get people entering the profession. There is a case for dealing with short term shortages through targeted migration, but relying on that long term is just a cop out.

Yes, but that would mean helping more people study nursing. How about making university education tuition-free? Other countries manage to do it.

[meic]

How about making university education tuition-free? Other countries manage to do it.

Is there any difference other than the terminology?

In the UK you have student loan and pay back at say 2-7% of your earnings on top of 20% income tax.
Swedes have a lowest tax rate of 29%.

[Mick F]

Chatting to a friend yesterday and we got onto Brexit.
She voted to remain and I asked her why.

She said that she didn't really know and just thought it would be good to carry on like before. Status quo?
We had a good discussion after that, and within ten minutes, she agreed with me that we should be out and she'd voted without thinking.

I wonder how many voters vote without thinking?