** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

[mjr]

If we have another vote I believe the Leave vote will be even bigger. Where does that leave the Establishment? Folk are really fed up with them already, and getting more and more fed up with the unelected bureaucrats in Brussels ( and Strasbourg). The French are just loving all this. Might as well just leave...they are petrified that we will streak ahead and leave the awful EU mess in the dust.

No, they're petrified that we will sink and pull them down with us. I think Brits are far more anti-French than our French friends are anti-Brit.

You can believe whatever you like about the Leave vote - I'm pretty sure your version is fantasy, especially as this time even more of "the Establishment" is Leave this time round - but there's only one way to prove it.

[bovlomov]

If we have another vote I believe the Leave vote will be even bigger. Where does that leave the Establishment? Folk are really fed up with them already, and getting more and more fed up with the unelected bureaucrats in Brussels ( and Strasbourg). The French are just loving all this. Might as well just leave...they are petrified that we will streak ahead and leave the awful EU mess in the dust.

Do you moan about unelected civil servant here? Or do you mean 'elected bureaucrats'?

I take it this 'establishment' doesn't include Andrew Neil, Boris Johnson, Michael Gove, Jacob Rees Mogg, Liam Fox, Rupert Murdoch, Paul Dacre, Toby Young, Nigel Farage, The Barclay Twins, David Starkey, Nigel Lawson, Theresa Villiers, or any of the other privileged millionaires that make up the Brexit campaign?

[honesty]

If we have another vote I believe the Leave vote will be even bigger. Where does that leave the Establishment? Folk are really fed up with them already, and getting more and more fed up with the unelected bureaucrats in Brussels ( and Strasbourg). The French are just loving all this. Might as well just leave...they are petrified that we will streak ahead and leave the awful EU mess in the dust.

Al

Which unelected bureaucrats?

[pete75]

If we have another vote I believe the Leave vote will be even bigger. Where does that leave the Establishment? Folk are really fed up with them already, and getting more and more fed up with the unelected bureaucrats in Brussels ( and Strasbourg). The French are just loving all this. Might as well just leave...they are petrified that we will streak ahead and leave the awful EU mess in the dust.

Al

It's many from the establishment who are pushing Brexit. Or don't you think Eton and Oxford characters like Johnson and Rees-Mogg are establishment figures?
If, as you say the leave vote, would be even bigger why are you against another vote? It would certainly settle things once and for all.

[Oldjohnw]

Since Mrs May appears to think that the poor, stupid public couldn't possibly be allowed to have a change of heart why does she spend all her time trying to persuade MPs to change theirs?

[al_yrpal]

Which unelected bureaucrats?

This lot for a start.... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Commission and thats just for starters

Appointees, like the Lords

Al

[mjr]

Which unelected bureaucrats?

This lot for a start.... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Commission and thats just for starters

Appointees, as bad as the Lords

The commission president is the leader of the largest party in parliament, so only as bad as the UK PM.

The rest of the commission comes from the parliamentary majority coalition, so as bad as the UK cabinet, but formally appointed by the member states, so it's like if the House of Lords appointed the UK cabinet and the Lords were chosen for limited terms by the UK national/regional governments... but what actually happens in the UK is the cabinet is appointed by the PM alone. And the Lords are appointed for life or longer by current or past PMs or monarchs.

There is no objective assessment of the EU system which finds it less democratic than the UK system.

[Oldjohnw]

Which unelected bureaucrats?

This lot for a start.... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Commission and thats just for starters

Appointees, as bad as the Lords

The commission president is the leader of the largest party in parliament, so only as bad as the UK PM.

The rest of the commission comes from the parliamentary majority coalition, so as bad as the UK cabinet, but formally appointed by the member states, so it's like if the House of Lords appointed the UK cabinet and the Lords were chosen for limited terms by the UK national/regional governments... but what actually happens in the UK is the cabinet is appointed by the PM alone. And the Lords are appointed for life or longer by current or past PMs or monarchs.

There is no objective assessment of the EU system which finds it less democratic than the UK system.

And the following are unelected:

Judges
Civil Servants
Directors of Quangos
Chief Constables
Ombudsmen
Generals

MEPs are elected through PR, so far more democratic than the UK.

[roubaixtuesday]

If we have another vote I believe the Leave vote will be even bigger. Where does that leave the Establishment? Folk are really fed up with them already, and getting more and more fed up with the unelected bureaucrats in Brussels ( and Strasbourg). The French are just loving all this. Might as well just leave...they are petrified that we will streak ahead and leave the awful EU mess in the dust.

Al

Honestly, nobody, anywhere thinks this.

The rest of the world, almost without exception, thinks we're committing an inexplicable act of self- harm.

[mercalia]

Hi,
I'm not into denial of the facts at all.
I realise as a remainer you will say such things.
As for a new referendum, let's say you get your wish and we remain that the votes.

What do we do then?

That's the problem isn't it, so let's just say the first referendum It's one by the remainders.
The vote leavers go for a petition online and eventually we have referendum two.
The result is reversed.

What do we do then?

If you can't see where this is going then who is in denial.

Is it a mess probably.

(Typed with speech)

May's mistake ( other than calling a GE was to activate Article 50 IN THE FACE OF A DIVIDED COUNTRY. so the only result of a new referendum pro remain would be one that gave say 70-80% in favour of leaving. Anything else would mean we remain because the people want it or we remain becauses the country is divided ( still ) Either way A50 should be revoked.

On the matter of the march and the petition. Their significance out weighs their numbers as they are the only ones who can be bothered to do anything about this mess? Where are all the leavers? oh 200 of them with Farage.

[honesty]

Which unelected bureaucrats?

This lot for a start.... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Commission and thats just for starters

Appointees, like the Lords

Al

So that’ll be the group that are suggested by each member state then approved under a vote by the parliament.... Anyway, this is a little like complaining the Whitehall civil servents aren’t elected. The roles are comparable...

[Vorpal]

Hi,
So half the just under, the remain voters Living in London decided to go on a March.

When the a 50 online petition hits 8 million Half the remain voters will have reaffirmed their votes.

As a vote leader I see no need to go on any marches, Would you if you one the vote Bother either.

So comparing the 5 million et cetera With Pro leaver petitions is somewhat feeble.

The people who go out and march are those who feel strongly about something. Not just strongly enough to vote for it, but to demonstrate for it. To give time & travel to somewhere, and risk kettling, or violence, or any of the other things that go wrong with demonstrations. Maybe it's not worth it to the winning side, but then where are all the angry Brexiters that people go on about?

As for the petitions, there are two compared. Both ask for specific things relating to Brexit:
-revoke article 50
-proceed with a 'no deal' Brexit

Why is it 'feeble' to compare them?

[bovlomov]

Honestly, nobody, anywhere thinks this.

One person somewhere thinks this.

[Vorpal]

Honestly, nobody, anywhere thinks this.

One person somewhere thinks this.

Other Europeans don't. Even Norwegians who benefit from being in the EEA without being in the EU, think that the British have collectively lost their senses. The few folks I've come across who think the the UK is doing the right thing still don't think that the UK is going to leave anyone in the dust. They think that the harm Brexit will do is a worthwhile sacrifice.

[Bonefishblues]

Honestly, nobody, anywhere thinks this.

One person somewhere thinks this.

Other Europeans don't. Even Norwegians who benefit from being in the EEA without being in the EU, think that the British have collectively lost their senses. The few folks I've come across who think the the UK is doing the right thing still don't think that the UK is going to leave anyone in the dust. They think that the harm Brexit will do is a worthwhile sacrifice.

I suspect it's those Europeans with their feeble grasp of languages confusing leave and be left


...being serious for a moment, I do respect those who take the 'price worth paying because x' pov because at least founded in reality.