** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

[Flinders]

Horizon, oh dear..ye of little faith! Britain has changed. In the face of huge odds we are still just about holding our own despite the Jonahs assertions. Our country is still a magnet for clever folk who want a better life. Things are difficult all around the world, we arent alone with our problems. Dont know what sort of work you do but I still have many friends in spheres that are doing well and doing unique and exciting new things with massive potential. If the Chinese make a success of Scunthorpe I'll eat my hat.
Two old friends from Maine were here with us last week. Its 10 years since I last saw them. They are Democrats, they are really nice and they are well aware of Americas failings. The US has many people like them. America isnt all bad and I can see the time coming when huge powerful corporations exesses will be better controlled but not curbed and squashed. However these same corporations have gifted the human race massive personal benefits its all too easy to cast them as evil. Four legs good, two legs bad was a mindless chant like 'wicked Tories'. The serial scaremongering just doesnt wash. Its sad so many seem to be willing Britain to fail.

Al

Please spare us the empire-obsessed-pink-glasses nonsense about how we will do so well outside the EU when it will leave us treatyless and at the mercy of the likes of trump and China. Your democratic mates have a lot of work to do to get rid of trump and his criminal associates, and even if they do, Pence will take over, and will stuff us just as badly. The EU is the only organisation trying (and to some extent succeeding despite UK attempts to block it) to curb international coroprations and tax havens.

The reason we are 'not alone' now is that we are in the EU- the US has walked off to be mates with Putin, and the Commonwealth countries have made it clear that there will be serious quid-pro-quo if we want anything off them- we'll pretty much certainly get worse deals with them than the EU has, and it will take time (the EU-Canada treaty too 8 years). If we leave the EU, we are not only alone, but we have magnificently brassed off the only countries that a) are our immediate neighbours, and b) have both incentive and inclination to support us. That's just so stupid I can hardly belive anyone who is able to string a sentence together could think it was a good idea. The costs will be immense, and the benefits illusory. Even Mogg admits it will take 40 years to see the benefits. (Except for him and his short-selling mates in the finance industry, they will make a fast buck shorting Sterling and UK shares).

[al_yrpal]

Thanks for that... I should get out quick!

Al

[PDQ Mobile]

Whether two Democratic friends are that relevant to to question of "do we wish to align ourselves more with the USA", I shall let others decide.

I offer this comment.

The point I would make about the direction of Trump's USA is that there is simply no room for what is perceived as "weakness" esp. (but not only) in business.
Literally anything goes if you can get away with it, it seems.
The goal is always to make as much money as possible, even in areas as dubious (for that purpose) as healthcare.
And Trump will exploit fossil fuel recourses as much as he can with no thought whatsoever about proven climate influence and the consequent shortage for coming generations.
It is simply the most dreadful stance and example from one who should giving a lead. Or offering substantiated argument.


Trump cares nothing for kindness or simple acts of charity, that is my impression of the man.
In his view they are weaknesses, although he is actually quite wrong for such acts actually often lend an inner strength and power to an individual.
Trump will abuse power to achieve any end he desires- the miring of political opponents for example.
So closer ties with the USA -no thanks.
The EU has been for the last 20 or so years a pretty fair supporter of lower carbon economies and more sustainable agricultures. It has tried to help some of the poorer regions within it. Sometimes quite successfully.

I am not "successful" in many areas but I do however draw the line at making money from any opportunity that presents itself.

I did not buy BT shares, for example, because I considered that the telephone network already belonged to me and the rest of us. And I was right about that too!
We had already paid for it and generations had worked to put it into place.

I would also draw the line at making money from any "defence" contract.

Now I am sure that al, who has no such compunction, would think me a wooly headed liberal (or worse!), for he sees the goal of wealth acquisition as quite laudable, as far as I can tell with little reservation?

His argument that we all benefit from such avariciousness is in my view somewhat flawed.

There is another way. A fairer more sharing way.
That that such a way "does not exist" is the propaganda of the group that benefit the most.

The very very rich, the exploiters of the world's natural recourses, the hedge funders and bankers.
The corrupt politicians bribed, as they seem so often to be, by Russian Oligarchs and the Media Moguls.

I still dream of a world a little less so tilted.

[al_yrpal]

Thing is, you arent just talking about Trump, more than half of Americans think like him. In mid America their world view often stretches only as far as the City or County border and they dont care, end of. Nothing we can do about it, America doesnt need the rest of the world and as things stand the world cannot do without America.
Personally I wont invest in things I disapprove of - tobacco, arms, alcohol, gambling and evil empires. But, Alphabet, Apple, etc have done me proud whilst Banks and Oil have done me bad. Swings and roundabouts..... Despite your evidenceless assertions I do have scruples. I understand you need someone to ceaselessly denigrate. Lucky that I have a thick skin.

Al

[PDQ Mobile]

^^
Indeed and why would anyone wish to associate their nation with such a narrow, ill-informed and closed world view?
It's a real problem for them.
And they've got other problems, for example the National Rifles Ass. bollucks and all that associated right to bear arms junk. (Not to mention the toll on birds and beasts.)

So I personally don't care about being a tad poorer if I can avoid that kind of selfish greed. For to live where there is less criminality and fear is worth a great deal. Sadly the poor old UK is already a fair way down that particular road, thanks in large part to a long overexposure to the US film and "entertainment" industry.
And now the ever closer adoption of Trumpian type economics.
I don't think that I personally need America as much as you intimate?
I reckon I can do ok keeping them sidelined.
It is a myth IMV that "as things stand the world cannot do without America".
I could suggest a good long list of places that would in fact be better off without them. (And without Russian interference too).
One could go further and suggest that in reality "America cannot do without the rest of the world"!

I just returned from a longish stint in Europe.
A great many people I met had a good knowledge of the political tooing and frooing within the UK and the wider world. Genuinely refreshing.
A very far cry from the "world view that only stretches as far as the County border".
Indeed some folk I encountered had a political knowledge that was a deal better than some I meet here in the UK regarding Brexit.
There is something of a dumbing down culture within our red top press- personally I think that's a given. And terribly sad -if not something rather worse and indictable.

So I fail utterly to understand your preference of the US over Europe as a political and trading ally.

Regarding investments and work.
And I really don't wish to get to personal here, it did seem to me that you intimated some links with the defence/arms industry upthread.

[windysmithy]

Thing is, you arent just talking about Trump, more than half of Americans think like him.
Al

Er, well surely they would have voted for him then: Only 46.1% of the 55.7% of the registered US electorate who bothered to vote in 2016,voted for trump.

Thats er 25.7% of the electorate , which of course excludes anyone with any criminal record which is, er, a bit skewed , especially wrt racial bias.

Not most americans at all, that's a fact.

[al_yrpal]

Not everybody votes... nitpicking.

I trained in the Ministry of Aviation for 5 years and worked as an Engineering Designer on the Rapier bad weather surveillance radar in my early 20s, a very long time ago. I dont invest in Arms businesses although I once did.

Al

[reohn2]

Where's the plan post Brexit?
Where's the deals that were going to all wrapped up,done and dusted in a matter of a few weeks?
What's the relationship going to look like with a trading block we've turned our back on?
Who's going to fill the job vacancies of the EU citizens who return home because they don't feel welcome?
What will be our environmental stance?

Can anyone answer these simple questions,because the government since 2016 can't or won't answer them.
All I hear is that the country will manage,of course we'll all manage but IMO the vast majority will be poorer for it.

[horizon]

America isnt all bad and I can see the time coming when huge powerful corporations exesses will be better controlled but not curbed and squashed. However these same corporations have gifted the human race massive personal benefits its all too easy to cast them as evil.
Al

Al: I'm sitting here writing this on a Windows computer. One of my heros is Henry David Thoreau. Despite their having comprehensively despoiled an entire contintent and decimated a native population, Americans are indeed not all bad . The problem in this debate is really just the trade deal and how it handles current American approaches to food and healthcare. I also agree that the UK (still together or not) could have a bright future. Our difference is about a general shaping of the future: I think we are much better in the EU but that doesn't make America bad or British industry uninventive.

[al_yrpal]

Mr H, thing is as a Nation State we can have our own stance, with the US in mind we don't have to concur to what we don't like. That's the problem as I see it with the EU, we are just a puppet and we have little choice or influence at all, that's what people like me don't like.

Same concerns, different views.....

I too would be very concerned about American bullying with respect to food and healthcare. But we don't have to accept things we don't like. Better than being dictated to by 27 other nations.

Al

[reohn2]

Mr H, thing is as a Nation State we can have our own stance, with the US in mind we don't have to concur to what we don't like.

We will if we haven't another choice!

That's the problem as I see it with the EU, we are just a puppet and we have little choice or influence at all, that's what people like me don't like

That is not true,the UK is an equal partner in the EU with equal rights and seat at the table and MEPs in the EU parliament,so please stop posting falsehoods.

I too would be very concerned about American bullying with respect to food and healthcare. But we don't have to accept things we don't like. Better than being dictated to by 27 other nations.

Al

Not when we have a choice,not if we don't,the current PM would lick Trump's backside to keep in favour with him.

[Polisman]

Mr H, thing is as a Nation State we can have our own stance, with the US in mind we don't have to concur to what we don't like. That's the problem as I see it with the EU, we are just a puppet and we have little choice or influence at all, that's what people like me don't like.

Same concerns, different views.....

I too would be very concerned about American bullying with respect to food and healthcare. But we don't have to accept things we don't like. Better than being dictated to by 27 other nations.

Al

That's probably the most naive take on our current situation I've ever read. 'We don't have to accept things we don't like...'
You're talking about getting into bed with arguably the most aggressive economic superpower on the planet. To do business with them, on any tolerable terms they are going to extract their pound of flesh, just as the EU does theirs. I can imagine the demands of the US on our economy and institutions are going to be significantly greater than those extracted by Europe. They are keening their blades as we speak. What a carve up Britain will be.

On top of that layer of demands will be in no short order: huge reduction in workers rights, no paid holidays or sick leave, thinning of industrial and domestic safety standards, alignment of food and agricultural standards, the list goes on an and on. And if we don't like them, or agree to abide?

No trade. Tariffs. Isolation. Simple as that. We need them oh so much more than the US needs us.

Is into the frying pan, from the relative safety of the EU fryer. It'll make our current 'puppet' status look utterly benign.
Naivety on a plate.

[Oldjohnw]

Since Al won't reply telling us which laws the UK can't make, perhaps he will explain another of his statements and tell us how we are dictated to by 27 other nations.

Why do supporters of brexit think that they have to continually present false ideas to justify their stance? On Saturday, Gove said the EU stopped us planting trees. On Sunday he was writing about it not being fair that EU citizens get NHS treatment (overlooking the Brits get treatment in the EU) unless they pay in to the NHS.

No-one pays into the NHS. Not even Al. The NHS is funded by tax, which is paid by EU citizens working here.

[bovlomov]

No-one pays into the NHS. Not even Al. The NHS is funded by tax, which is paid by EU citizens working here.

And it's rather insulting to imply that someone's worth is measured only by the tax they pay. It isn't only the NHS and other public services that are kept alive by immigrants. The same goes for many voluntary organisations offering charity or other community benefits.

Gove has taken a lot more out of society than he has put in, but I can't see any community benefit to show for it (apart from to the community of Colombian drug barons).

[Paulatic]

Since Al won't reply telling us which laws the UK can't make, perhaps he will explain another of his statements and tell us how we are dictated to by 27 other nations.

Why do supporters of brexit think that they have to continually present false ideas to justify their stance? On Saturday, Gove said the EU stopped us planting trees. On Sunday he was writing about it not being fair that EU citizens get NHS treatment (overlooking the Brits get treatment in the EU) unless they pay in to the NHS.

No-one pays into the NHS. Not even Al. The NHS is funded by tax, which is paid by EU citizens working here.

Ah but it’s different those people are ExPats not immigrants. Just check through Al's posts if you don’t believe me.