** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

[reohn2]

Pomposity is a human thing, and I imagine it varies only in style.

reohn2's point about the war is interesting. In my experience, people who served in WWII didn't go on about it. Yet there are plenty of 50 and 60 year olds who act as if they themselves saved us from the Nazis. That attitude is being fuelled by the tabloid press, and the likes of Farage, who never miss an opportunity to associate themselves with a war fought over 70 years ago.

I agree,I've looked on in incredulity at some of the remarks made by people of my age(64) and much younger with regard to almost any European country,remarks like "who won the war anyway" and even heard open hostility toward Europeans when I've been on the continent.
Little Englanders is a good phrase to describe such people who push such ideologies

[Ben@Forest]

You may or may not be wrong but this attitude does exist in other European counties too. At school I remember we were given a speech to read, it was about France and evidently written by someone of power who saw France as a great power. We were then asked who or when the speech had been made - you'd (I I certainly did) have guessed it was Louis XIV or Napoleon but it was a fairly contemporary politician - and not even de Gaulle - it was someone like Pompidou or Giscard d'Estaing.

But France is a 'great power' it depends on how you see that power.

In which case , depending on how you see it, then Britain is a great power too. The two countries are not that dissimilar, (unsurprisingly given our shared history), we had Norman French kings, had similar Christian outlooks, had revolutions which executed kings, and had empires which had to be dismantled after WW2. We've had our murky pasts in running colonies or trying to influence past colonies, we were both involved in Suez and France has been happy to dispatch the Foreign Legion whenever it has felt the need since WW2. And (though I can't think of one off hand) I'm sure we've been involved in nefarious activities like the French sabotaging the Rainbow Warrior.

When you look at what Germany has been through since WW2 and the way it's welcomed and helped Eastern Germany after reunification and the way it's opened it's borders to foreigners,it seems pretty good at trying to unifying Europe IMHO.

Lots of West Germans were not happy at the time about the reunification (or at least the cost) - that's when I was there and there was plenty of grumbling and plenty of jokes about the 'Ossis' the way Irish jokes used to be a staple here. And of course Merkel's actions in opening the borders was firstly, illegal under EU law on how refugees should be processed, secondly has awakened more interest in the far right, and finally she has admitted she should have handled it differently.

Overall Germans are not more liberal than the British, and we are also probably more liberal than the French - over 10 million of whom recently voted for Marine Le Pen.

[reohn2]

Ben
My original point was in context of the thread,as in that the UK thinks itself better than the Europeans,this as Bov pointed out is milked unmercifully by the right wing imperialists amongst us who push for past glories that only ever served the few.
I'm going to leave it at that as TBH I've had a belly full of Brexit and wish I hadn't posted now .

[bovlomov]

I've just read that Nigel Farage's father was born in 1935. He was ten years old when the war ended. When his son Nigel turned 15, The Sex Pistols, Elvis Costello and Lene Lovich were in the top ten.

How Nigel become like he is? Either the whole thing is no more than shtick, or he is the product of a rather strange social environment. I mean, he admits to singing anti-German, WWII related football chants at his German then wife.

Is it too late to send him off for a bit of National Service?

[matt_twam_asi]

How Nigel become like he is? Either the whole thing is no more than shtick, or he is the product of a rather strange social environment. I mean, he admits to singing anti-German, WWII related football chants at his German then wife.

Is it too late to send him off for a bit of National Service?

For balance, he also reportedly sang Hitler Youth songs when he was in the CCF, so he's managed to be vile on both sides.

[Boyd]

“How we voted almost a year ago is in a sense irrelevant as it is in the past. Both remainers and leavers need to move on.” [...] Why doesn't she follow her own advice, move on and shut up?

You've added "shut up" which is a bizarre interpretation of her call - lately she's been working to bring about what she now seems to believe is the best future for Britain, a gentle Brexit, raising funds for candidates in favour of a meaningful vote on the final deal: https://bestforbritain.org/

And as someone who has claimed to want a painful Brexit, did you like the link on the foot of that article? https://www.theguardian.com/money/2017/ ... exit-bites "Employers in the UK are struggling to fill vacancies after the sharpest drop for more than a year in the number of available candidates, according to a report that points to more recruitment difficulties ahead once Brexit bites."

The UK has astonishing low productivity growth. Supply and demand. Why invest in capital goods when labour is so cheap? On visits to Manchester I have seen 3 car washes closed....well not quite, the car washing was being done by 4 men. Immigration police have found people working for four pound an hour at car washes. We are deindustrialising. Mechanisation is the key factor that gave the poor a decent standard of living. The middle and upper are the only beneficiary of cheap labour. Enjoy

[Boyd]

But in general, doing better at Eurovision would be another benefit of embracing freedom of movement!

You mean embracing cheap labour to which the middle and upper class are the only beneficiary. Enjoy while the working class see there standard of living fall over a cliff.

[Ben@Forest]

How Nigel become like he is? Either the whole thing is no more than shtick, or he is the product of a rather strange social environment. I mean, he admits to singing anti-German, WWII related football chants at his German then wife.

Some of it is undoubtedly schtick (which is of course a Yiddish word!), it appeals to the type of person you described earlier. But I just don't see that it's unusual to Britain, there are plenty of Europeans who see themselves as 'better', in some way than other Europeans. I can only draw on my own experiences in Germany, but thinking back I certainly heard derogatory remarks about both Turks and Italians (in general I mean - not individual people) and at least some of those remarks related to how Italy fought in WW2.

[Vorpal]

Some of it is undoubtedly schtick (which is of course a Yiddish word!), it appeals to the type of person you described earlier. But I just don't see that it's unusual to Britain, there are plenty of Europeans who see themselves as 'better', in some way than other Europeans. I can only draw on my own experiences in Germany, but thinking back I certainly heard derogatory remarks about both Turks and Italians (in general I mean - not individual people) and at least some of those remarks related to how Italy fought in WW2.

And in Eastern Europe there is a huge amount of prejudice against the Roma people. To the point that otherwise open-minded and intelligent people say horrid things about them based solely on that they are Roma.

[mjr]

But in general, doing better at Eurovision would be another benefit of embracing freedom of movement!

You mean embracing cheap labour to which the middle and upper class are the only beneficiary. Enjoy while the working class see there standard of living fall over a cliff.

No, I mean allowing our skilled working class to benefit too. Don't you try to tell me that my class is uniformly against freedom. We spent centuries trapped by various methods and there are those trying to con us into returning to those shackles, using xenophobia as their tool.

[al_yrpal]

Fancy a flutter?

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Al

[mercalia]

Fancy a flutter?

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Al

do they accept 1p bet?

[Boyd]

But in general, doing better at Eurovision would be another benefit of embracing freedom of movement!

You mean embracing cheap labour to which the middle and upper class are the only beneficiary. Enjoy while the working class see there standard of living fall over a cliff.

No, I mean allowing our skilled working class to benefit too. Don't you try to tell me that my class is uniformly against freedom. We spent centuries trapped by various methods and there are those trying to con us into returning to those shackles, using xenophobia as their tool.

How about the unskilled working class?
Who are we class wise?
Return to what shackles?
Supply and demand freedom of movement has resulted working class working for peanuts. Courier working 14 hour days for 8 hours minimum wage. Happy?

[PDQ Mobile]

How about the unskilled working class?
Who are we class wise?
Return to what shackles?
Supply and demand freedom of movement has resulted working class working for peanuts. Courier working 14 hour days for 8 hours minimum wage. Happy?

I have mostly made my crust by manual labour in various forms.
It's my choice (and some circumstance) actually.
I like working outside too.
Semi skilled at some stuff.

But I don't think freedom of movement has resulted in the loss of that much work.

What has reduced numbers employed more is the ever increasing and ever more sophisticated mechanisation.
In all branches of industry and beyond.
It's a problem that's here to stay for the foreseeable future.

[Boyd]

But I don't think freedom of movement has resulted in the loss of that much work.

So you are agreeing it has resulted in the loss of work.
I was actually on about wages.
You talk about mechanization, I have seen 3 mechanized car washes where the machines are switched off and people are doing the washing. Cheap labour cheaper than running a machine. Immigration found some working for £4 an hour. A product of supply and demand.