** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

[Ben@Forest]

This country is no more or less progressive than it was in June 2016. Other European countries have been more or less progressive than us at any points in their history, but we have a great history of gradual democracy, and it is society that makes changes not institutions.

Institutions only make laws or decrees when they see society will accept them - witness our acceptance of legislation relating to gay or lesbian equality now - you only have to go back to the 1980s when society did not accept it and would not have favoured legislation then.

The EU does not push societal mores, it reflects them.

[PDQ Mobile]

Societal mores.
I had to look it up!!

Society is infuenced by many things but one huge influencer is the media.
Murdoch his press and the Mail amongst others.

They have promoted an anti EU stance for reasons of their own gain, IMV.
I think they did not like some of the "social and equal" policies of the EU.
Boris Johnson's wife ( a lawyer) hated the European Court of Justice and pushed him to campaign for "leave".
I always thought that that court had made pretty fair and even decisions.

I don't share in any measure your confidence for society to self regulate.
The "Murdoch" media can more or less dictate what it so chooses, at the moment.
I think the country is now less "progressive" than in 2016.

[kwackers]

This country is no more or less progressive than it was in June 2016.

Oh, it most definitely is. We've taken a huge step backwards.

We gave ignorant racists a voice and we even try to appease them when they claim they're not racist.
We claim we want our sovereignty back and yet when we use it the right wing media that speaks for the half of the population screams hate from its front pages.

I cringed when I saw and heard the interviews with leavers in the days after the vote. I thought we'd moved on but brexit brought out the worst in this country and gave it a voice. Perhaps it was always there but too afraid to speak in which case brexit has empowered it.

The only way you could think we hadn't stepped back is if you're of a like mind with the mob. I'm not.
To me we've moved back into the past and not even to a romanticised past but to a hate filled, suspicious, segregated one. We laugh at Trump and the Americans, but we're only a whisker behind them.

[reohn2]

This country is no more or less progressive than it was in June 2016.

Oh, it most definitely is. We've taken a huge step backwards.

We gave ignorant racists a voice and we even try to appease them when they claim they're not racist.
We claim we want our sovereignty back and yet when we use it the right wing media that speaks for the half of the population screams hate from its front pages.

I cringed when I saw and heard the interviews with leavers in the days after the vote. I thought we'd moved on but brexit brought out the worst in this country and gave it a voice. Perhaps it was always there but too afraid to speak in which case brexit has empowered it.

The only way you could think we hadn't stepped back is if you're of a like mind with the mob. I'm not.
To me we've moved back into the past and not even to a romanticised past but to a hate filled, suspicious, segregated one. We laugh at Trump and the Americans, but we're only a whisker behind them.

Again,nail,head,on!
We're on the edge of disaster,and the Neros fiddle,though they're able to because there money spends anywhere,whilst the rest of us suffer.......

[djnotts]

This country is no more or less progressive than it was in June 2016.

Oh, it most definitely is. We've taken a huge step backwards.

We gave ignorant racists a voice and we even try to appease them when they claim they're not racist.
We claim we want our sovereignty back and yet when we use it the right wing media that speaks for the half of the population screams hate from its front pages.

I cringed when I saw and heard the interviews with leavers in the days after the vote. I thought we'd moved on but brexit brought out the worst in this country and gave it a voice. Perhaps it was always there but too afraid to speak in which case brexit has empowered it.

The only way you could think we hadn't stepped back is if you're of a like mind with the mob. I'm not.
To me we've moved back into the past and not even to a romanticised past but to a hate filled, suspicious, segregated one. We laugh at Trump and the Americans, but we're only a whisker behind them.

So very well put. "Me too" is all I can say. The mob has taken over my country - yes, Remainers can be patriotic, note not the same as nationalistic. I fear that there is little more to be said. Await the knock on the door and the cattle truck to......

[pwa]

Even so, you have to take into account the differing electoral systems e.g. the German system where half the seats are elected on of a more PR basis I'm not familiar with the exact details but PR'y systems tend to allow more of the more extreme parties to get at least some representation.

Ian

In the last general election UKIP got 1.8% of the vote (they'd have got no seats under the German PR system), it was down from 11% in 2015 - so we can say that that was a protest vote. If the AfD get less than 5% in the next German GE I think we can say that their 2017 result was a protest vote. But in France the FN have been polling good numbers since the 1980s. They have not only had good representation nationally but also within cities and communes. That's mainstream - not a protest vote, whether it's under a PR system or not.

Around the time that I think all the Socialists had to vote for Chirac(?) in the presidential election against Le Pen a Frenchman I worked with said that one in every five Frenchman really was a fascist.

The point is the Conservatives are much further to the right than say the Christian Democrats in Germany - Merkel would be to the left of centre in the UK. That's why the right in Europe form right wing nationalist parties - many of whom share an EU parliament group with the Conservatives. The UK electorate thrice voted in a Conservative government under Mrs. Thatcher which had many policies to the right of the FN in France along with a more authoritarian leader. Just spoken to an Englishman I work with and he said two in every five Englishmen really are fascists. Does that prove they are?

Odd really - people here with right wing views arguing that Europe is more right wing. Brings to mind the proverbial pair of bald men fighting over a comb.

I have friends who consider themselves Conservatives. One is a party member. I have voted Conservative myself, though not usually. And I think I am right to think that none of us would tolerate racism or any bullying of minorities. I am choosy about my friends, and they are decent people who believe in democracy and tolerance. They are a million miles away from the Far Right in France. If you want to live in a country with a more vibrant Far Right, France is the place to go. Or Austria if you fancy the mountain air.

[661-Pete]

They are a million miles away from the Far Right in France. If you want to live in a country with a more vibrant Far Right, France is the place to go. Or Austria if you fancy the mountain air.

That's as maybe, but I hope you're not denying the presence of far-right fanatics right here in England. And have all the Kippers changed their spots even if they gave up voting for UKIP?

Certainly the situation in France presents a disturbing conundrum, especially seeing as they don't have a mass-circulation far-right organ to stir up hatred, equivalent to our Daily Fail. (Or if they do, I've not noticed people buying it in vast numbers). Of Austria I can't really speak from experience, not having visited the country for many years.

[Bonefishblues]

This country is no more or less progressive than it was in June 2016.

Oh, it most definitely is. We've taken a huge step backwards.

We gave SOME ignorant racists a voice and we even try to appease them when they claim they're not racist. No, we call out racism as we always have done.
We claim we want our sovereignty back and yet when we use it the right wing media that speaks for the half of the population screams hate from its front pages.

I cringed when I saw and heard the interviews with SOME leavers in the days after the vote. I thought we'd moved on but brexit brought out the worst FROM SOME in this country and gave THEM a voice. Perhaps it was always there but too afraid to speak in which case brexit has empowered it. Likely so at that time - it seemed to be the catalyst, but I don't see the events of just after the vote being replicated now, unless I'm missing them.

The only way you could think we hadn't stepped back is if you're of a like mind with the mob. This is too hyberbolic way of describing it, I think. There is no "mob"
To me we've moved back into the past and not even to a romanticised past but to a hate filled, suspicious, segregated one. We laugh at Trump and the Americans, but we're only a whisker behind them. We are I think a world away from the deep division in America where a whole part of the population has been effectively abandoned and has no voice. "Remainers" very much do, as evidenced by recent events.

I know mods don't like this way of comment, but it seems the most elegant way of illustrating my thoughts, so hope it stands.

In summary, whilst I agree with many of the sentiments, I think that the way they are described is at variance with what I am observing, and the language isn't helpful.

The simple fact is that this is the ultimate divisive issue - we are either in or we're out. Yes there are some shades in between, but that's the fundamental fact - there are winners and losers in terms of the outcome. For the absence of doubt, I was on the losing side.

[pwa]

They are a million miles away from the Far Right in France. If you want to live in a country with a more vibrant Far Right, France is the place to go. Or Austria if you fancy the mountain air.

That's as maybe, but I hope you're not denying the presence of far-right fanatics right here in England. And have all the Kippers changed their spots even if they gave up voting for UKIP?

Certainly the situation in France presents a disturbing conundrum, especially seeing as they don't have a mass-circulation far-right organ to stir up hatred, equivalent to our Daily Fail. (Or if they do, I've not noticed people buying it in vast numbers). Of Austria I can't really speak from experience, not having visited the country for many years.

Today in Austria a conservative group is negotiating with a far right group to form a coalition government.

Here in the UK we do of course have Far Right groups, on the fringes and despised by the great majority. Britain First and the like. UKIP briefly attracted a wider popularity, but I see that as a short lived phenomenon based partly on Farage's partly successful masking of racism in the party, and the one issue nature of UKIP. I feel that there is very little enthusiasm for UKIP's wider vision, if it has one. Assuming Brexit happens, UKIP is dead in the water.

[kwackers]

In summary, whilst I agree with many of the sentiments, I think that the way they are described is at variance with what I am observing, and the language isn't helpful.

I was deliberately b&w. Brexit is sold as such and tbh I think for almost any point you can add the word 'some' in front to placate people, I don't but I make the assumption that it's presumed and thus there's no need to.

But I'll be honest and say I live in a bubble.
The only people I know personally that voted for brexit were either deluded (e.g. my aunt), full on DM "kick em out and hang em high" types (e.g. my brother in law) or "immigrants have stolen my job" (e.g. my brother, who in his 56 years on this planet has never had one* but has 6 kids).

*Not completely true. He had a paper round for 2 weeks until the newsagent discovered he was just chucking the papers under a bush in the local churchyard.

[mjr]

Does anyone think May wouldn't do a deal with UK IP to remain in power, if needed? Again, the main difference is the far right (but not extreme) is currently supporting the Conservatives and minority parties need a lot of geographically concentrated support to win seats.

The MP for the 1800s has been all over the BBC this morning complaining that the UK looks like becoming a colony of the EU... but bizarrely he seems to think it'll only be for two years. I've long warned that the likely outcome is that the UK effectively becomes the EU Puerto Rico, an offshore economy heavily influenced by its suzerain and without directly elected representation.

ETA http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42375059

[pete75]

They are a million miles away from the Far Right in France. If you want to live in a country with a more vibrant Far Right, France is the place to go. Or Austria if you fancy the mountain air.

That's as maybe, but I hope you're not denying the presence of far-right fanatics right here in England. And have all the Kippers changed their spots even if they gave up voting for UKIP?

Certainly the situation in France presents a disturbing conundrum, especially seeing as they don't have a mass-circulation far-right organ to stir up hatred, equivalent to our Daily Fail. (Or if they do, I've not noticed people buying it in vast numbers). Of Austria I can't really speak from experience, not having visited the country for many years.

Today in Austria a conservative group is negotiating with a far right group to form a coalition government.

Yes and in June the PM was negotiating with a right wing, religiously bigoted group to form a government. That's ok though isn't it because they support your view.

[pwa]

In summary, whilst I agree with many of the sentiments, I think that the way they are described is at variance with what I am observing, and the language isn't helpful.

I was deliberately b&w. Brexit is sold as such and tbh I think for almost any point you can add the word 'some' in front to placate people, I don't but I make the assumption that it's presumed and thus there's no need to.

But I'll be honest and say I live in a bubble.
The only people I know personally that voted for brexit were either deluded (e.g. my aunt), full on DM "kick em out and hang em high" types (e.g. my brother in law) or "immigrants have stolen my job" (e.g. my brother, who in his 56 years on this planet has never had one* but has 6 kids).

*Not completely true. He had a paper round for 2 weeks until the newsagent discovered he was just chucking the papers under a bush in the local churchyard.

Just picking up on an interesting point you make there, we all live in our own bubble and view the world from it. I don't doubt your experience of the people you know, though my own experience of Leave voters is of mostly non-racist people just concerned about the quantity of migrants entering the UK each year, and not even suggesting deportation of those who have already arrived. Welcoming, even, to those already here and getting on with their lives. I know people of a less reasonable disposition exist, I've seen them on the telly, but they are not the ones I talk to.

I was pleased, after the Brexit vote, to see a news report from Boston, Lincs, one of the most pro-Leave towns, and people on the street who had voted Leave were being asked if they wanted migrants deported. They were all saying "No" and some appeared shocked at the suggestion. Whether we voted Leave or Remain, we can and should stand up for decent human values.

[Bonefishblues]

In summary, whilst I agree with many of the sentiments, I think that the way they are described is at variance with what I am observing, and the language isn't helpful.

I was deliberately b&w. Brexit is sold as such and tbh I think for almost any point you can add the word 'some' in front to placate people, I don't but I make the assumption that it's presumed and thus there's no need to.

But I'll be honest and say I live in a bubble.
The only people I know personally that voted for brexit were either deluded (e.g. my aunt), full on DM "kick em out and hang em high" types (e.g. my brother in law) or "immigrants have stolen my job" (e.g. my brother, who in his 56 years on this planet has never had one* but has 6 kids).

*Not completely true. He had a paper round for 2 weeks until the newsagent discovered he was just chucking the papers under a bush in the local churchyard.

I'm from the "language is important" camp, hence my response. We have come an enormous distance since the 1960s when it was acceptable to express overtly racist attitudes. For a while Brexit seemed to give licence to a number of people to regress, which made great news, and was widely reported as a result.

I don't much care if people harbour such views (I believe many fewer do than in previous ages, but that's their prerogative if they choose to) as long as they don't express or act on them, but we must be careful in our language to avoid inflaming that which we had spent decades damping, and in most cases, changing.

[pwa]

That's as maybe, but I hope you're not denying the presence of far-right fanatics right here in England. And have all the Kippers changed their spots even if they gave up voting for UKIP?

Certainly the situation in France presents a disturbing conundrum, especially seeing as they don't have a mass-circulation far-right organ to stir up hatred, equivalent to our Daily Fail. (Or if they do, I've not noticed people buying it in vast numbers). Of Austria I can't really speak from experience, not having visited the country for many years.

Today in Austria a conservative group is negotiating with a far right group to form a coalition government.

Yes and in June the PM was negotiating with a right wing, religiously bigoted group to form a government. That's ok though isn't it because they support your view.

I imagine (correct me if I am wrong) that you, like most these days, are not a religious person. In most of the UK religion is seen by most as something that others do. That was not always the case. I grew up in a church-going Roman Catholic household, and some of my relations were in the Salvation Army. So for us religion was at the centre of life. It guided our view of the world. I've moved on, but I still appreciate that for people with a religious conviction there is no possibility of putting their faith to one side when it becomes inconvenient. In Northern Ireland there are still a lot of people for whom God is their guide, and the DUP represent one strain of that. To you and me it looks old fashioned and behind the times, but that is where they are at the moment. They are religiously conservative, but to them their stance is right. So long as they don't sway UK law on issues such as gay marriage I can accept them propping up the government on non-social matters such as economic policy and Brexit.

The more I think about it the less useful I find the term Right Wing. Would someone who believes in curbing rampant capitalism and favours renationalising the railways, but also hates his Asian neighbours, be left wing or right wing?