** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

[mercalia]

so here we have it - the Irish and Germans insisting on the backstop written into any deal with all its implications of prejudicing any later trade deals and UK sovereignty, showing a lack of wisdom that the Good Friday Agreement negotiators had in a parallel problem of not insisting the IRA disarmed FIRST. Stupid Stupid Irish, seems like you are the stereotype half wits, and you might get exactly what you dont want ie having to have a hard border ( we the UK wont do that, You Irish will at the demand of the EU, and reap the whirl wind and the anger of a neighbour on who you depend ).


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/08/mps-must-stop-wishful-thinking-and-back-may-on-brexit-irish-deputy-pm-simon-coveney

"Varadkar said EU leaders did not wish to trap Britain in the backstop indefinitely and had already made that clear."

no just trap the UK into a bad Brexit deal that serves only the EU's interest

[Cunobelin]

Is this ....The anti Tax avoidance Directive anything do with so many affluent politicians being so keen on getting out of Dodge?

[PDQ Mobile]

Europe has changed since 1945/1949, but people have not changed much, can still be stupid
We thought everything would be better after 1989

A great many places in Europe have changed almost out of all recognition since 1949, particularly urban areas.

Agriculture and it's structures are also much altered, by inference also a good deal of rural life. Far less people are employed in agriculture.


It's a fact that some people are cleverer than others, always have been always will be, but by definition people are pretty clever beings.

Mass media and it's influence have changed enormously since 1949.

Are you referring to Germany after 1989?
Some I know would say it is better now. Do you?

[Cyril Haearn]

Europe has changed since 1945/1949, but people have not changed much, can still be stupid
We thought everything would be better after 1989

A great many places in Europe have changed almost out of all recognition since 1949, particularly urban areas.

Agriculture and it's structures are also much altered, by inference also a good deal of rural life. Far less people are employed in agriculture.


It's a fact that some people are cleverer than others, always have been always will be, but by definition people are pretty clever beings.

Mass media and it's influence have changed enormously since 1949.

Are you referring to Germany after 1989?
Some I know would say it is better now. Do you?

Yes I was thinking of Germany & Poland
Germany is better now in many ways, especially the east, Norway or Switzerland are a bit richer but Germany is the best big country to live in I think
Lots of places in Neufuenfland are shiny and Leipzig is booming, expected to go from 400 000 to 700 000 people, glad I was there 1990 when it was still grey
Still lots of differences between Germany east + west, mind

[kwackers]

It's good to see that sometimes us remainers get it wrong.
Seems Seaboard Freight are not only genuine but actually conducting sea trials as I type!

Link to article

[PDQ Mobile]

^Indeed! Still we were right about some things!
The EU promoting greener policy for example.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-46797396

[roubaixtuesday]

Big news in from the House of Commons...

After the Speaker very controversially allowed a vote on an amendment from Dominic Grieve, rather than having three weeks to come back with a proposal, May will now only have three days, should her plan fail to be supported.

This is very significant: Parliament, not the executive now has effective control of the timetable. May can no longer run down the clock, or at least nowhere near as easily.

Taking back control indeed!

[Bonefishblues]

Big news in from the House of Commons...

After the Speaker very controversially allowed a vote on an amendment from Dominic Grieve, rather than having three weeks to come back with a proposal, May will now only have three days, should her plan fail to be supported.

This is very significant: Parliament, not the executive now has effective control of the timetable. May can no longer run down the clock, or at least nowhere near as easily.

Taking back control indeed!

She's had plenty time already. Good for Mr B.

[mr bajokoses]

Big news in from the House of Commons...

After the Speaker very controversially allowed a vote on an amendment from Dominic Grieve, rather than having three weeks to come back with a proposal, May will now only have three days, should her plan fail to be supported.

This is very significant: Parliament, not the executive now has effective control of the timetable. May can no longer run down the clock, or at least nowhere near as easily.

Taking back control indeed!

And don't those Tories just love how parliament is 'taking back control'

Kudos to Bercow, it's no wonder the leavers are gunning for him.

[mjr]

Big news in from the House of Commons...

After the Speaker very controversially allowed a vote on an amendment from Dominic Grieve, rather than having three weeks to come back with a proposal, May will now only have three days, should her plan fail to be supported.

This is very significant: Parliament, not the executive now has effective control of the timetable. May can no longer run down the clock, or at least nowhere near as easily.

Taking back control indeed!

Is it controversial just because the government thought the amendment wouldn't be allowed? It looks like yet again, the government is being reminded that parliament is the sovereign body, and government is parliament's servant, not its master!

This looks like a fair summary of the row: https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/fo ... rexit-bias

[pete75]

Fascinating Aida on Brexit - Edinburgh Fringe 2016

Moderator edit: use of language that is not family friendly (NSFW)

[youtube]mVy7faNKEtM[/youtube]

[mjr]

Leavers, do you like supporting Putin's view? https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... britain-eu

Do you really think he's got the UK's best interests at heart? Similarly Trump. Any trade agreement with these nationalists is unlikely to benefit us long-term.

[Cunobelin]

You ask Leave voters to reflect on the actions of yobs outside Parliament, as if we are all to blame. for it. I hated what happened there, and I feel no responsibility for it. Why do you blame me for it? By asking all leave voters to "reflect" you imply we all have some responsibility for it. Come on! I won't think of you as scum if you afford me the same courtesy. We differ in our views about certain things but we stand together in opposing the yobs. If we are to heal the divide we have to stop the finger pointing and work on understanding.

In the spirit of understanding and healing divisions I will assume that when you voted leave you were not consciously voting for these yobs to feel free to act in this way.

Reflecting our difference in views I also suggest that opening the right-wing-thuggery box was a foreseeable consequence of the leave vote. The murder of Jo Cox was a very loud warning.

My earlier point that many leave voters did not really know what they were voting for is merely an extension of this difference of opinion, and my optimism that in fact the country does not really have 17 million supporters of right-wing thuggery. I struggle to extend the same charitable assumption to those who continue to claim that they did know what they were voting for, because, frankly, this is it.

I didn't vote for thuggery. I didn't vote for Farage or Boris either. I did know that a minority with unsavoury views would vote the same way as me, but I didn't want that to stop me voting the way I wanted to, for my reasons and not theirs.

Let's say there was a second referendum next week. How would you vote? Remain, of course. But that would probably trigger right wing yobs to do things you and I would not want to happen. Would knowing that change the way you vote? Of course not. It is the same with me. I vote for what I believe in. I didn't vote for yobbish behaviour and you wouldn't either. We can stand together as democrats defending free speech or we can just divide again as Remain / Leave.

This is the major problem

There is a reasonable, intelligent and pragmatic middle ground that is being threatened, dismissed and denied s voice by the extremists

[pete75]

In the spirit of understanding and healing divisions I will assume that when you voted leave you were not consciously voting for these yobs to feel free to act in this way.

Reflecting our difference in views I also suggest that opening the right-wing-thuggery box was a foreseeable consequence of the leave vote. The murder of Jo Cox was a very loud warning.

My earlier point that many leave voters did not really know what they were voting for is merely an extension of this difference of opinion, and my optimism that in fact the country does not really have 17 million supporters of right-wing thuggery. I struggle to extend the same charitable assumption to those who continue to claim that they did know what they were voting for, because, frankly, this is it.

I didn't vote for thuggery. I didn't vote for Farage or Boris either. I did know that a minority with unsavoury views would vote the same way as me, but I didn't want that to stop me voting the way I wanted to, for my reasons and not theirs.

Let's say there was a second referendum next week. How would you vote? Remain, of course. But that would probably trigger right wing yobs to do things you and I would not want to happen. Would knowing that change the way you vote? Of course not. It is the same with me. I vote for what I believe in. I didn't vote for yobbish behaviour and you wouldn't either. We can stand together as democrats defending free speech or we can just divide again as Remain / Leave.

This is the major problem

There is a reasonable, intelligent and pragmatic middle ground that is being threatened, dismissed and denied s voice by the extremists

The whole point is that there isn't a middle ground. Leavers and remainers are each on the opposite sides of a binary decision.

[bovlomov]

The whole point is that there isn't a middle ground. Leavers and remainers are each on the opposite sides of a binary decision.

The referendum was binary but the options aren't. It is only since the referendum that anyone has pretended it is binary. Before the referendum, prominent leavers were promising, variously, Norway, Canada, A customs union, THE customs union, the single market and other bespoke deals. They were promising nothing would change for EU citizens in the UK. Since the referendum, however, Theresa May has imagine lots of red lines, and the same leavers are advocating no deal (or 'WTO rules', whatever they are). Few of them have said a word in defence of EU citizens here, or UK citizens in the EU.

The result of the referendum was hijacked by extremists who had said nothing about their true plans until after the vote. If Brexit doesn't happen, it will be down to them and their dishonesty.