** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

[kwackers]

Yes it is a small margin, but a win is a win.

The message to Boris is that the Brexit Party is strong enough to de-rail Tory electoral wins. He won't want a General Election now.

I reckon that's always been the case since the European elections. I predict a hung parliament in the next GE.

There was a good interview with Dodds this morning where after the tories were spouting on about the Libdems gaming the system where she was basically saying "yes the system is crap but if you want FPTP then this is how it works and I'm all for a change so every vote counts".

[pete75]

Yes it is a small margin, but a win is a win.

The message to Boris is that the Brexit Party is strong enough to de-rail Tory electoral wins. He won't want a General Election now.

I reckon that's always been the case since the European elections. I predict a hung parliament in the next GE.

There was a good interview with Dodds this morning where after the tories were spouting on about the Libdems gaming the system where she was basically saying "yes the system is crap but if you want FPTP then this is how it works and I'm all for a change so every vote counts".

Is it not gaming the system when an MP ousted by a recall petition is put up for re-election?
Contrast this with Peterborough where the sitting Labour MP was expelled from the party following her conviction for dishonesty and then the Labour party actively campaigned in favour of the recall petition.

[kwackers]

Is it not gaming the system when an MP ousted by a recall petition is put up for re-election?
Contrast this with Peterborough where the sitting Labour MP was expelled from the party following her conviction for dishonesty and then the Labour party actively campaigned in favour of the recall petition.

Gaming as in having Plaid Cymru and the Green field no candidates so as to increase the odds of the Lib Dems winning.
With such a thin margin it's fairly likely the LibDems would have lost.

Such is the problem with FPTP, had a proportional system been in place it's likely the Tories would have won.

[Debs]

Could call it gaming the system but nothing to stop the opposition doing the same,
Although having said that there was the arrogant and nasty Brexit fascist Party stopping them doing the same

Tory voters are far more diverse, blind tradition, blue rinse, country squire, and blinkered working class Tory voter who obtusely refuse to grasp how much they [ and the UK ] will suffer under the ruthless rule of Brexit.

I'm very glad the "Remain" candidate won, but TBH i'm shocked how many voted for a disgraced Tory ex-MP who obviously has a fraudulent nature.
They obviously have no scruples.

I'm also shocked that in this time of national crisis, four out of ten didn't even bother vote. Turnout = 59.6%

[pete75]

Is it not gaming the system when an MP ousted by a recall petition is put up for re-election?
Contrast this with Peterborough where the sitting Labour MP was expelled from the party following her conviction for dishonesty and then the Labour party actively campaigned in favour of the recall petition.

Gaming as in having Plaid Cymru and the Green field no candidates so as to increase the odds of the Lib Dems winning.
With such a thin margin it's fairly likely the LibDems would have lost.

Such is the problem with FPTP, had a proportional system been in place it's likely the Tories would have won.

What does gaming actually mean in a political context, it's not an expression I'm familiar with and would you have been complaining if the Tories had won?

[kwackers]

What does gaming actually mean in a political context, it's not an expression I'm familiar with and would you have been complaining if the Tories had won?

Gaming simply means using the optimal strategy by playing the system - which is exactly what she did.

Would I have complained if the Tories won? Nope.
I complain about the system, imo it simply doesn't work which is why I was entertained by her saying the system is broken and she simply played it.
As she said; people had the chance to fix it and didn't so this is how it is at the moment.

[Oldjohnw]

The first duty of government is protecting the people.

We have a government which is knowingly taking us to a situation where medicines and food will either run out or at the least be in short supply. Unless, of course, you are a multi-millionaire with private medical care.

[horizon]

I complain about the system, imo it simply doesn't work which is why I was entertained by her saying the system is broken and she simply played it.

In a way, the system does work. 51% of people want to Remain, 49% to Leave. The by-election result is broadly in line with how things are at the moment (the Tory could have won if the Brexit party hadn't split the vote). Even Parliament as it stands pretty well reflects the split in the country. Yes, there will have to be some horse trading, but I don't think that either Remain or Leave can say they are being robbed of representation.

[kwackers]

In a way, the system does work. 51% of people want to Remain, 49% to Leave. The by-election result is broadly in line with how things are at the moment (the Tory could have won if the Brexit party hadn't split the vote). Even Parliament as it stands pretty well reflects the split in the country. Yes, there will have to be some horse trading, but I don't think that either Remain or Leave can say they are being robbed of representation.

And I think that the way it's currently playing out is working - but I consider that more a fluke than an indication the system works.

If I vote Green (or Brexit Party) in my constituency I'm pretty much relying on my MP making allowances for the fact I voted that way despite them not being either.
Worse sometimes I can't vote the way I want to either because in the last election my chosen party also dropped out to 'game' the system or because I need to make a strategic vote in order to ensure the least worst candidate wins which means my vote is seen as an indication that I agree with that particular candidate when in fact I simply think they're the least bad.

And that's all before you have to explain how a system can be considered representative when the number of MP's doesn't reflect the percentage of the vote that party got - sometimes by a considerable amount.

[horizon]

And that's all before you have to explain how a system can be considered representative when the number of MP's doesn't reflect the percentage of the vote that party got - sometimes by a considerable amount.

Because the party that gets elected to Westminster is already a coalition. People complain that politicians lie (some do) but most of them stretch the truth to encompass a wide spread of political views. I don't think that's a good thing but the policies of the elected party will have been stretched to include the votes of people they had to get in order to win seats. We then get, broadly, the government that we would have got anyway under PR and a few weeks of horse-trading. My views are mostly aligned with the Greens but I don't get upset when they don't win any seats (bar one): I look for policies that the major parties have adopted that reflect my bit of the electorate. It's for this reason that I think that no-deal is unsustainable as a political position.

[nirakaro]

The first duty of government is protecting the people..

That's wishful thinking. Throughout history, most governments have seen their first duty as being to remain in power, and enrich themselves and their friends. We may have moved on from that – a little – but when the chips are down, that's where their priority lies.

[661-Pete]

Gaming as in having Plaid Cymru and the Green field no candidates so as to increase the odds of the Lib Dems winning.
With such a thin margin it's fairly likely the LibDems would have lost.

Well - at the recent local elections, we had an agreement in our town, that Green and LibDem did not contest the same seats. I suppose one could call it "gaming". As a consequence Mrs P (unexpectedly, and unpreparedly) won her ward by a margin of four votes. She stood as Green against Tory and Labour opponents. Undoubtedly if the LibDems had stood in her ward, the Tory would have won - which is what we all expected.

She didn't want to win, but she's now doing her best: she has a duty to serve the residents in her ward whether they voted for her or not.

Maybe things are different at the Parliamentary level. I'm sure all the main candidates (well - perhaps not the Monster Raving Loony) actually wanted to win, by fair means or foul.

[djnotts]

The first duty of government is protecting the people..

That's wishful thinking. Throughout history, most governments have seen their first duty as being to remain in power, and enrich themselves and their friends. We may have moved on from that – a little – but when the chips are down, that's where their priority lies.

Precisely.

[Oldjohnw]

The first duty of government is protecting the people..

That's wishful thinking. Throughout history, most governments have seen their first duty as being to remain in power, and enrich themselves and their friends. We may have moved on from that – a little – but when the chips are down, that's where their priority lies.

Precisely.

O I know that they never mean it but it is a generally accepted principle, acknowledgd by the courts and is in the 14th Amendment of the American Constitution. That they don't follow it doesn't make it less true.

Usually governments tend to speak of it when they want to spend obscene amounts on obscene armaments.

[horizon]

The first duty of government is protecting the people..

That's wishful thinking. Throughout history, most governments have seen their first duty as being to remain in power, and enrich themselves and their friends. We may have moved on from that – a little – but when the chips are down, that's where their priority lies.

I don't agree. The first duty of a government is to serve the class that put it there. If we reduce that to personalities, corrupt individuals, friends and relatives then we don't see the power and strength of a class and misunderstand why things are as they are. It is the job of the Conservatives for example to persuade working people that they are on the same side. Even if the politicians are all Mother Theresas (no, not that one), that simply cannot be the case but people are still led to believe it - hence Brexit.