** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

[Debs]

One thing's for sure,the whole debacle has shown up UK politics for what it is,a class ridden mess.
To think anyone would vote in a GE for such a complete and utter self seeking moron,clown and liar for one thing-Brexit-,goes to show how shortsighted the UK electorate really is.
Still waiting for any facts that show the UK will benefit in any way by leaving the EU,leaves me in no doubt that half the country will believe any jaded bluster and lies without any facts to back up such trope,told to them by self seeking millionaires and billionaires,some of whom don't even live in the UK,and whose sole remit is to make themselves richer and more powerful.
People wishing to turn this country into a corrupt tax haven for anyone who wishes aviod paying tax and accumulate more of wealth and power whilst the ordinary wo/man beg for whatever crumbs fall from their table.
I find the whole circus utterly bizarre and the people supporting such a mess as bad as the authors of it, you're being hoodwinked and can't even see it!

Rant over.

You're not ranting, you're exclaiming a truthful, sincere and accurate account of the situation.

Stephen Fry put the Brexit gambit into very realistic perspective with this vid:

https://youtu.be/_HDFegpX5gI

[Psamathe]

so any one here think Boris has done a good job? I do .

AIUI, Johnson won the backing of the ERG by going for a harder Brexit; he won the backing of the EU by creating the border in the Irish Sea. So he shafts the Unionists (no skin off my nose but they might feel differently) and gets a harder Brexit and he gets his deal. The gamble is that the ERG stay on board and compensate for the loss of DUP votes. So it's tight but if he loses then he has a winning hand for the General Election. Yes, clever, if you think that turning Britain (not the UK, that's gone) into a Third World banana state is a good thing.

is it a harder Brexit? That is only true if the trade talks go a certain way?. This is only the exit agreement? So every thing is up for grabs later? We can if we want have a free trade deal that aligns us with the EU as Labour wants or not. The fear over May's deal is it denied us these options? So it is an achievment to separate the two phases that the EU tried to connect to the Uks detriment?

The Political Statement gives those negotiating for the UK a degree of mandate. Just as a General Election gives the wining party a "mandate" to implement their manifesto - they don't always do that but when they do it makes it harder for MPs (from their own Party) to vote against/argue against, etc.

It means the starting point and direction will be to a harder Brexit, worse for UK economy, jobs, workers, etc. and that a move towards anything softer will mean a lot of argument, change of people, etc.

Ian

[mercalia]

AIUI, Johnson won the backing of the ERG by going for a harder Brexit; he won the backing of the EU by creating the border in the Irish Sea. So he shafts the Unionists (no skin off my nose but they might feel differently) and gets a harder Brexit and he gets his deal. The gamble is that the ERG stay on board and compensate for the loss of DUP votes. So it's tight but if he loses then he has a winning hand for the General Election. Yes, clever, if you think that turning Britain (not the UK, that's gone) into a Third World banana state is a good thing.

is it a harder Brexit? That is only true if the trade talks go a certain way?. This is only the exit agreement? So every thing is up for grabs later? We can if we want have a free trade deal that aligns us with the EU as Labour wants or not. The fear over May's deal is it denied us these options? So it is an achievment to separate the two phases that the EU tried to connect to the Uks detriment?

The Political Statement gives those negotiating for the UK a degree of mandate. Just as a General Election gives the wining party a "mandate" to implement their manifesto - they don't always do that but when they do it makes it harder for MPs (from their own Party) to vote against/argue against, etc.

It means the starting point and direction will be to a harder Brexit, worse for UK economy, jobs, workers, etc. and that a move towards anything softer will mean a lot of argument, change of people, etc.

Ian

well thats just a rather negative way of saying we have all our options open where as before the EU had for their own purposes tried to limit them to suit them?

[mercalia]

One thing I do think is that it is OUTRAGEOUS that the people are being denied a voice on this matter. The original referendum was at best one about the principle of leaving the EU as no one had any details. It is an OUTRAGEOUS abuse of power we should be be denied a choice or say now we have the details, the opposite of democracy; a tyrannical parliament is acting against the will of the people useing our previous votes to justify what ever they ( Boris ) decides.

[kwackers]

where as before the EU had for their own purposes tried to limit them to suit them?

You say that as though it's a bad thing and unexpected...

Here's my prediction.
Every country we negotiate with as we get these great trade deals will have their own agenda that they'll foist on us with nary a thought as to what we want.
Almost makes one wish we had some bargaining power to bend them to our will...

The new world order is the big economies, China, US, EU, India, Africa(?) calling the shots and all the other little guys like us getting dumped on from a great height.
I'd suggest teaming up with other smaller economies to make ourselves bigger and give ourselves more weight...

[Psamathe]

is it a harder Brexit? That is only true if the trade talks go a certain way?. This is only the exit agreement? So every thing is up for grabs later? We can if we want have a free trade deal that aligns us with the EU as Labour wants or not. The fear over May's deal is it denied us these options? So it is an achievment to separate the two phases that the EU tried to connect to the Uks detriment?

The Political Statement gives those negotiating for the UK a degree of mandate. Just as a General Election gives the wining party a "mandate" to implement their manifesto - they don't always do that but when they do it makes it harder for MPs (from their own Party) to vote against/argue against, etc.

It means the starting point and direction will be to a harder Brexit, worse for UK economy, jobs, workers, etc. and that a move towards anything softer will mean a lot of argument, change of people, etc.

Ian

well thats just a rather negative way of saying we have all our options open where as before the EU had for their own purposes tried to limit them to suit them?

Not at all. May's political statement described a much closer long term relationship with the EU so had her "deal" been accepted then the next phase of negotiations would have started out seeking that closer relationship and negotiations would have moved in the direction of that closer relationship - that is the "mandate" that would have been given to May/her negotiating team by Parliament.

Johnson's "deal" political statement has described a more distant relationship and by the sma etoken, his negotiating team would start out and negotiations would move in the direction of the more distant relationship as per the "mandate" that Parliament would have given to him/his negotiators.

It's nothing to do with the EU - they accepted our choice. They were happy with May's close relationship, they are happy with Johnson's more distant relationship. So you can't accuse the EU or anything on that count.

Ian

[Psamathe]

One thing I do think is that it is OUTRAGEOUS that the people are being denied a voice on this matter. The original referendum was at best one about the principle of leaving the EU as no one had any details. It is an OUTRAGEOUS abuse of power we should be be denied a choice or say now we have the details, the opposite of democracy; a tyrannical parliament is acting against the will of the people useing our previous votes to justify what ever they ( Boris ) decides.

I agree. We are not being delivered anything like what was promised by any of the Leave campaigns. I believe the reason we are being denied is because of the more extreme Brexit-eers who realise they would probably lose next time now that the truth about the real options and costs are out there.

I also don't believe in this "Brexit fatigue" MPs keep talking about - how the entire population is fed-up with it all and just wants Westminster do do anything even if it's expensive and damages economy/jobs/security/etc. People who are fed-up with it just stop listening to the reports on it. It's just another excuse for MPs wanting to rush through damaging Brexit without proper scrutiny and without thinking about what the population really want.

To my mind it always was going to be hard work and you don't go for a damaging rubbish option just because it's a bit more work to get a much better less damaging option. MPs are paid to do this work and not cut corners.

Ian

[djnotts]

Still waiting for any facts that show the UK will benefit in any way by leaving the EU,leaves me in no doubt that half the country will believe any jaded bluster and lies without any facts to back up such trope,told to them by self seeking millionaires and billionaires,some of whom don't even live in the UK,and whose sole remit is to make themselves richer and more powerful.
People wishing to turn this country into a corrupt tax haven for anyone who wishes aviod paying tax and accumulate more of wealth and power whilst the ordinary wo/man beg for whatever crumbs fall from their table.
I find the whole circus utterly bizarre and the people supporting such a mess as bad as the authors of it,you're being hoodwinked and can't even see it!

Rant over.

Says it ALL.

[Psamathe]

...People wishing to turn this country into a corrupt tax haven for anyone who wishes aviod paying tax and accumulate more of wealth and power whilst the ordinary wo/man beg for whatever crumbs fall from their table.....

Along those lines and back to what you'll need to vote if Piffle gets his way

Voters must provide family coat of arms as ID insists government

The government has been accused of the suppression of voters’ rights after plans to introduce compulsory checks of a family coat of arms for voters were leaked.
.....
Some within government aren’t sure that the plan goes far enough and are pushing for tighter election controls including the presentation of a photo id, land titles and an Eton Old Boys’ school tie.

“The idea that any minor aristocrat could show up at the ballot box and expect a say in the future of our country is completely preposterous.” A junior minister told the Rochdale Herald.

Ian

[merseymouth]

Hi all, So we'll need photo I.D., Land Titles & old Eton School Tie to vote?
All will no doubt be soon available on Fleabay for those not already privileged enough to have them already!
"Power To The People"! MM

[reohn2]

Hi all, So we'll need photo I.D., Land Titles & old Eton School Tie to vote?
All will no doubt be soon available on Fleabay for those not already privileged enough to have them already!
"Power To The People"! MM

Did you watch the video linked to by DEBS?
I suggest you do it'll open your eyes as to what's really going on.

[NATURAL ANKLING]

Hi,

I don't know where you get the idea that EU citizens cannot be told to leave. The freedom of movement is based upon the right to work. Someone who is not working, studying, or self-employed can be asked, after 90 days to leave the country, apply for a residence permit and/or demonstrate that they have sufficient personal funds to continue staying without recourse to public benefits. Each country handles it slightly differently.

Careful!

NA doesn't like folk telling him (most) leavers don't have a clue about how it all works. He thinks it's some sort of leftie plot.
Much better for them to believe all the nonsense they've clung to in order to justify their beliefs.

There you go again that's all the ammo you got,
I am quite happy to be corrected on anything.
Direct all your claptrap at me if you want.
but you seem to have this problem in saying words like most et cetera, believe in, how do you know you have no idea you're just guessing.
You are simply not tolerant of anybody else's beliefs/ views.

[NATURAL ANKLING]

Hi,

Are you accusing Mick of Xenophobia?
Sounds like it.
At least you're not alone Mick according to 661pete.

You need to clarify that remark.

Clarity is not his strong point.

Personal comments.
If that's all you've got you already lost.
OH you lost anyway get over it.
I see we are still leaving.

[mercalia]

Sinn Féin: 'Westminster antics do nothing to allay Brexit fears'

Sinn Féin President Mary Lou McDonald says that the "antics and bluster" at Westminster "will do nothing to allay the Brexit fears of workers, business or farmers".

In a statement, she adds: "Today we have witnessed more farce and dysfunction in the British 'House of Chaos'.

"What happened today has nothing to do with Ireland, our interests, our economy or our agreements. No one should be under any illusion about that.

"The majority of the people of the north did not consent to Brexit.

"It is being foisted on them against their democratic wishes.

"Sinn Féin will continue to work to defend Ireland from the worst impacts of Brexit and ensure there will be no hard border, no unionist veto and that the Good Friday Agreement will be protected."

now wouldnt it be rather funny if at last they decided just this once to vote down Brexit?

[661-Pete]

Clarity is not his strong point.

Personal comments.

I don't think it is a personal comment. It's a reflection on how you've posted on this forum, not on your character as a whole. But we'll let that pass.

OH you lost anyway get over it.

Is that the best you can come up with - after three years?

I see we are still leaving.

Oh yeah! I forgot.....