** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

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pete75
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by pete75 »

Bowedw wrote:
You're right you're not in a low paid job if your contribution towards the EU is 50 million a day. Try and answer the question accurately please.
No reason to be personal and petty and as english is not my first language I feel I am not doing to bad. I have removed the inappropriate word from your statement and would respectfully ask you to do the same as I believe this forum is promoted as suitable for all ages.
I contribute my share as a taxpayer towards the 50 million that UK is throwing away.
Lived through the whole process from the beginning of the so called Common Market, UK food industry, fishing industry just to name a couple just decimated and that was only the beginning.
Thank goodness the majority took the opportunity to use their vote wisely.

Scotland is another matter and I do feel the remain in the UK offered many carrots but at least it was not a once only vote and they can put it to the vote again.
The EU referendum was UK wide first past the post result not a region by region decision something that many of our elected representatives cannot come to terms with.
Leaving the EU referendum was a once only opportunity I understand but maybe a vote in forty years time would be appropriate


Damn is a word in common use and there's nothing wrong with it.

What 50 million a day?

In what way has the food industry been decimated?

Over fishing leading to declining fish stocks and losing the cod wars which excluded UK trawlers from Icelandic waters are what really caused most damage to the UK fishing industry.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
Bowedw
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by Bowedw »

REVEALED: EU countries BUY up British fishing quotas BEFORE Brexit
BRITAIN’s hopes of taking back control of its seas look to be in jeopardy after it was revealed that European countries are rapidly buying up the UK's fishing quotas ready for Brexit.
Figures published by the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Defra) suggest Spain, Holland and non-EU state Iceland have already bought up almost 90 percent of the entire fishing quota of Wales, as well as more than half that assigned to England.
The revelation comes despite environment secretary Michael Gove’s insistence that Brexit will enable the UK to regain control of fishing rights within British water.

Can anyone confirm if this statement is true or false as I find it beyond belief.
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bovlomov
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by bovlomov »

Bowedw wrote:REVEALED: EU countries BUY up British fishing quotas BEFORE Brexit
BRITAIN’s hopes of taking back control of its seas look to be in jeopardy after it was revealed that European countries are rapidly buying up the UK's fishing quotas ready for Brexit.
Figures published by the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Defra) suggest Spain, Holland and non-EU state Iceland have already bought up almost 90 percent of the entire fishing quota of Wales, as well as more than half that assigned to England.
The revelation comes despite environment secretary Michael Gove’s insistence that Brexit will enable the UK to regain control of fishing rights within British water.

Can anyone confirm if this statement is true or false as I find it beyond belief.

I believe many of the fishing quotas were sold by UK fisherman long before the referendum. I don't have the figures, but I suppose I could look.

Note - for EU fisherman to buy them, UK fishermen must be selling them.
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bovlomov
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by bovlomov »

This, for example, comes from 2014.
... five largest foreign-controlled vessels hold 32% of the quota managed by English marine authorities, and that 43% was held by foreign-controlled businesses.

I suppose any future quotas would be dependent on whatever agreement there is between the UK and EU. This minor detail wasn't raised by Gove during the referendum campaign, and it would be foolish to think he had any interest in the subject beyond its propaganda value.

And here is Full Fact's take on it from the eve of the referendum, responding to Johnson's claim that the EU is "pinching our fish". If you can't be bothered to read the lot, I'll sum up. Johnson is talking out of his bum again.
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by Bowedw »

your probably right there boviomov. Maybe the actions of a desperate industry? Or just plain greed.
Strange while we are fighting ourselves the Eu countries are still add their grab all policy of the last 40 years.
The introduction of quotas in the fishing industry decimated our fishing fleets, Pembroke Dock then had a Spanish fleet there for many years.
Likewise milk quotas introduced overnight decimated many farms in this country to enable other member states to grow from their 6 cows with bells into proper milk producers. These milk quotas where removed in 2015 to enable Europe to access wider markets. In the mean time our own milk industry is being strangled by the supermarkets. Milk 40 p a pint, beer £4. No wonder micro breweries are springing up everywhere.
Our apple production and sugar beet industry went down a similar route and for years all that seemed available where some tasteless french apples,
(I cannot remember what they where called)
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bovlomov
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by bovlomov »

Bowedw wrote:your probably right there boviomov. Maybe the actions of a desperate industry? Or just plain greed.
Strange while we are fighting ourselves the Eu countries are still add their grab all policy of the last 40 years.
The introduction of quotas in the fishing industry decimated our fishing fleets, Pembroke Dock then had a Spanish fleet there for many years.
Likewise milk quotas introduced overnight decimated many farms in this country to enable other member states to grow from their 6 cows with bells into proper milk producers. These milk quotas where removed in 2015 to enable Europe to access wider markets. In the mean time our own milk industry is being strangled by the supermarkets. Milk 40 p a pint, beer £4. No wonder micro breweries are springing up everywhere.
Our apple production and sugar beet industry went down a similar route and for years all that seemed available where some tasteless french apples,
(I cannot remember what they where called)

From what I've read, it's a lot more complicated than just blaming EU quotas. In most of these areas, EU policy, UK policy, international treaties, and the limits imposed by the natural environment all have an effect. Of course, it is easier to blame the EU than to look at the complexity. [see links above]

As an aside, another fact-checking site quoted Farage
As a result of membership of the Common Fisheries Policy, we are now allowed to catch less than 20% of the fish that swim in British waters. The other 80% we have given away to the rest of Europe.

The site drily observed
When fact checking this statement, it is first of all worth pointing out that if the UK was allowed to catch 20% of the fish that swim in British waters and the EU took the rest, then there would be no fish left in the sea.

What, Farage is talking out of his bum too?
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Mick F
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by Mick F »

BrianFox wrote:Estimated votes by constituency:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Results ... nstituency

Just counted.
284 Remain MPs in seats that the electorate voted Leave.
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roubaixtuesday
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by roubaixtuesday »

Mick, can you explain the relevance?

You never responded yesterday.


BrianFox wrote:
This means that there are 50% of MPs representing Leave constituencies who aren't representing their electorates' views.


How so?

Which MPs are acting against either the referendum result or the manifestos stood on at the subsequent election?

You seem to be conflating "leave the EU" with "My personal view of how to leave the EU"

There is no mandate for the latter.
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by roubaixtuesday »

Also from yesterday, Edmund Burke

BrianFox wrote:We have a representative democracy.

This referendum calamity is a great example of why it's a good system of government, remembering of course that more generally democracy is the worst system of government there is, except for the others.

Read your Edmund Burke.

Theorists such as Edmund Burke believe that part of the duty of a representative was not simply to communicate the wishes of the electorate but also to use their own judgement in the exercise of their powers, even if their views are not reflective of those of a majority of voters:[6]

...it ought to be the happiness and glory of a representative to live in the strictest union, the closest correspondence, and the most unreserved communication with his constituents. Their wishes ought to have great weight with him; their opinion, high respect; their business, unremitted attention. It is his duty to sacrifice his repose, his pleasures, his satisfactions, to theirs; and above all, ever, and in all cases, to prefer their interest to his own. But his unbiassed opinion, his mature judgment, his enlightened conscience, he ought not to sacrifice to you, to any man, or to any set of men living. These he does not derive from your pleasure; no, nor from the law and the constitution. They are a trust from Providence, for the abuse of which he is deeply answerable. Your representative owes you, not his industry only, but his judgment; and he betrays, instead of serving you, if he sacrifices it to your opinion.
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Mick F
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by Mick F »

BrianFox wrote:Mick, can you explain the relevance?
You never responded yesterday.
Sorry.

It's that parliament are at loggerheads and stalemate.
One of the problems, is that some MPs aren't representing the views of their electorate.
If all the MPs voted to Leave or Remain in accordance with the referendum results, the stalemate would go.

........... or that's the way I consider it.
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by roubaixtuesday »

If all the MPs voted to Leave or Remain in accordance with the referendum results, the stalemate would go


Parliament isn't discussing whether to leave or remain. It's discussing how to leave. There was no referendum on how to leave.
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bovlomov
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by bovlomov »

BrianFox wrote:
If all the MPs voted to Leave or Remain in accordance with the referendum results, the stalemate would go


Parliament isn't discussing whether to leave or remain. It's discussing how to leave. There was no referendum on how to leave.

Also, it has never been the job of an MP to vote according to the opinions of his or her constituents. My own MP is a leaver in a remain constituency. I have written to her several times about Brexit - most recently last night, to ask about her role in the Vote Leave campaign - but I have never used the 'remain majority' gambit. Her duty is to do the best, as she believes.
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by Vorpal »

It seems to be subscription only (we get paper copies at work), but the Financial Times recently published an article,
Brexiters fear 'biggest loss of sovreignty' since 1973


The latest is that Ms. May's current plan is Norwegian style arrangements . FT make the case that remaining in the single market, but not the EU will mean concessions on common rules, and the UK giving up the possibility to influence many of the laws without gaining regulatory independence.
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Mick F
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by Mick F »

bovlomov wrote:
BrianFox wrote:
If all the MPs voted to Leave or Remain in accordance with the referendum results, the stalemate would go


Parliament isn't discussing whether to leave or remain. It's discussing how to leave. There was no referendum on how to leave.

Also, it has never been the job of an MP to vote according to the opinions of his or her constituents. My own MP is a leaver in a remain constituency. I have written to her several times about Brexit - most recently last night, to ask about her role in the Vote Leave campaign - but I have never used the 'remain majority' gambit. Her duty is to do the best, as she believes.
Parliament couldn't make its mind up, so a referendum was called.

Cameron stated that the people would decide.
By March next year we will be out.
By all means, let them find a way to get out, but out we are going.

Personally, I want us out asap.
Once out, we can negotiate world-wide as well as with the EU.
Mick F. Cornwall
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bovlomov
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by bovlomov »

Mick F wrote:]Parliament couldn't make its mind up, so a referendum was called.

Cameron stated that the people would decide.
By March next year we will be out.
By all means, let them find a way to get out, but out we are going.

Personally, I want us out asap.
Once out, we can negotiate world-wide as well as with the EU.

Parliament could make up its mind. The Tory Party couldn't, and that's why the referendum was called.

Getting out asap is OK, but the vast majority of economists and trade experts believe it would trash the economy. That's what Parliament is arguing about. Trashing the economy wasn't part of the prospectus, and a few people would rather not take the UK down that path.
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