** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

[Cugel]

On the basis of?

On the basis of that's how it works.

If someone doesn't vote, it is classed as abstaining.

Since when has abstaining been classed as a vote for the winners?

Lots of reasons to abstain almost none of which mean you're supporting either side.

Joseph Schumpeter, a Yank sociologist, had the theory that low turnouts in democratic votes (common in the US) were a signal from the electorate that they were satisfied with the status quo and felt little inclination to vote as voting implies a need for significant change.

One can poke holes in this theory but it sounds more likely than all abtainers not voting because they were in favour of the change being asked about but decided not to take the opportunity to say so.

Not that it should matter, as few of us have sufficient understanding to make an informed choice on such a vastly complex matter as EU membership. And, as some of us keep trying to point out, we live in a representative democracy not in Mobatania.

Cugel

[Cugel]

You did support her, in the most important way possible for a politician. You voted for her.

If I voted Labour, would that mean that I support:
1. Corbyn?
2. The Labour Party?
3. Just my MP?

All three; but the order of hierarchy is important.

We generally find we've voted for a political party whose policies and actions reflect the desires of it's leader far more than the desires of the lowly MP. Sometimes cabinet ministers get a say in what will happen (as in Attlee government) but other times it's effectively a mild dictatorship (Thatcher thing model).

In voting for the B-party you voted to award Farage some power. He may or may not turn out to be adept at using it, later on. I'm hoping not, which may not be an entirely forlorn hope as he's a useless fool, going by his history in politics.

On the other hand, rabble rousers often find willing helpmeets who are very adept........ His Kippers were all as useless as him but now he gathers the odd politician (such as the Widdy woman) who at least has experience of real politics. Happily she also has experience of being somewhat .... peculiar, which may be a detriment to any hard political ambitions she may have.

Cugel

[Cugel]

We've returned to the same argument at maybe a thousand pages back.
If I don't like Corbyn or what he stands for, but my local Labour candidate is superb and really really interested in his/her local area and is a fantastic enthusiastic wonderful honest hard-working person, would I vote Labour?

It's a mistake to vote for a personality. If there's genuine items on offer, vote for policies. Policies are not decided by bog-standard local MPs, however nice and hard-working they may be. We vote for political parties, who will have policies implemented only by the higher echelon, perhaps only by The Leader.

I've rarely voted except negatively (for one inadequate; against a much more nasty inadequate). Until The Greens, no policitcal party ever had policies I was for, but occasionally policies I was seriously against. Non-voting is regarded by some as an abrogation of responsibilty. From my perspective, voting for neolib 1 or neolib 2 would be a vile act, even if one of them does offer a penny off the income tax or to scratch one of my prejudice-itches.

Cugel

[Cugel]

I would argue that any decline in Blighty has been despite the best efforts of the EU to stem it. The decline is so obviously due to neoliberalism. (Go on, look it up).

On the other hand, neoliberalism has a firm grip of the EU!. Not as firm as it's grip on the Tories and New Labour, mind.

I cannot disagree with you on this.

Blame Thatcher and her ilk.

Despite Churchill and more recent advocates of Empire I see the sun setting on these islands outside of the EU. Unless we decide to fill a modest place on the planet, playing to inventive strengths and using them wisely, such as leading in all things green and in matters of justice and fairness, rather than inequality, financial services, off shore tax havens and playing at soldiers and pretending we are a great nuclear power.

Ha ha - my own sentiments in a nutshell. I salute your articulate brevity.

Cugel

[Cugel]

Some of the views expressed* here are beyond belief: you couldn't make it up...voting to leave the EU is bad enough, how anyone could vote for Farage's new party - supported by rich crooks like Aaron Banks is beyond beyond belief.

God help us.

John.

*new party...rings a bell...New Party...British Union of Fascists...

*expressed in the loosest sense, for example the white-bearded pasty-man never supports his opinion with anything remotely resembling a fact.

Indeed!
If there were a God we'd It's help alright as we can't even see ourselves what's good for us

I've been trying to invoke a good fairy but my spells and incantations have only brought forth more goblins! I wonder if a human sacrifice would work? I have a little list. (No I don't).

Cugel, also whistling in the dark.

[Cugel]

To be fair, the mess is the responsibility of TM's immediate predecessor, Dave who called the referendum without thinking it through. Presumably, he was so confident of a Remain result that he never considered the way the campaign would be run, or the impossibility of Parliament delivering something for which there was neither a plan, nor the possibility of one with countless different interpretations of the Leave vote.

Agreed,but the likes of MickF and NA voted for Brexit without even considering why,other than 'gut feeling' and 'because I don't like the EU' no other plausable reason
It's like dealing with children who can't or won't explain their reasoning,the miller full of puff and wind,MM and Al-rpal are of a similar ilk,no convincing argument and in most cases such completely laughable excuses they make my sides sore with laughter.
The mess was set in motion by the idiot Cameron but put into action by these people who allowed themselves to be led into it by the likes of Farage,Gov and BoJo.
If it weren't such a tragedy it'd make a good TV comedy........

I can only recommend a good 'ard bike ride, which will make you happy and tired, at least for a bit.

The alternative? A tragic apoplexy! This will mean one less "stay" vote in the next mob-opinion sampling exercise!!

Cugel

[Mick F]

To be fair, the mess is the responsibility of TM's immediate predecessor, Dave who called the referendum without thinking it through. Presumably, he was so confident of a Remain result that he never considered the way the campaign would be run, or the impossibility of Parliament delivering something for which there was neither a plan, nor the possibility of one with countless different interpretations of the Leave vote.

Yep.
I said that hundreds of pages ago.

[Cugel]

Some of the views expressed* here are beyond belief: you couldn't make it up...voting to leave the EU is bad enough, how anyone could vote for Farage's new party - supported by rich crooks like Aaron Banks is beyond beyond belief.

God help us.

John.

*new party...rings a bell...New Party...British Union of Fascists...

*expressed in the loosest sense, for example the white-bearded pasty-man never supports his opinion with anything remotely resembling a fact.

More hysteria based opinion

You're half right. It is opinion but hysteria based it is not.

I admit to feeling a rising panic as October and the Tory "leadership" thing grow ever closer. It would be easy to collapse into a cackling heap, glancing fearfully out the window to see if the BoJo klown polis were coming to make me wear a BoJo wig.

Cugel, not keen to live in The Booby Hatch.

[thirdcrank]

Self-moderated.

[reohn2]

To be fair, the mess is the responsibility of TM's immediate predecessor, Dave who called the referendum without thinking it through. Presumably, he was so confident of a Remain result that he never considered the way the campaign would be run, or the impossibility of Parliament delivering something for which there was neither a plan, nor the possibility of one with countless different interpretations of the Leave vote.

Yep.
I said that hundreds of pages ago.

Didn't we all

[windmiller]

hysteria by nature is contagious

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YlTUDnsWMo

[Mick F]

TC.
I'll paraphrase a repetition.

From all my memories, I have always not wanted to be in Europe, be it part of it, or in it. UK is an independent country, not part of anywhere in my opinion.

I'm never been ardent about this and never upset or worried about it. We were asked as an electorate back in the 70s if we wanted to continue. I voted to stop us being in it.
We were asked again in 2016, and I voted Out .......... as we all know.

Am I concerned about remaining or leaving? Am I bitter and twisted about all this?
No not at all. Not in the slightest. It's easier to stay in, but it's harder to leave - I will agree.

I want to leave, like I've always wanted to do, but I won't die in a ditch over this. If we remain, do I care? Not much. (Shrugs shoulders and carries on)

I was asked, and I answered.
Binary question.
That's all there is to it.

[Mike Sales]

To be fair, the mess is the responsibility of TM's immediate predecessor, Dave who called the referendum without thinking it through. Presumably, he was so confident of a Remain result that he never considered the way the campaign would be run, or the impossibility of Parliament delivering something for which there was neither a plan, nor the possibility of one with countless different interpretations of the Leave vote.

I wonder how he will justify it in his forthcoming book. It may be that the delay in finishing it is because the consequences of the mistake have not yet worked themselves out. It may be quite a while before the results are clear. I suppose he wanted to settle the splits in the Tory party, which were going on long before his time in charge. In fact it has made them much worse. Oh dear.

[reohn2]

[Yep.
I said that hundreds of pages ago.

It's hard to know how to say this gently. The last time I tried I self-moderated my post, but you are still digging into a deeper hole.

You seem to argue for argument's sake and from a desperation to be somehow right. Everybody is entitled to their own opinion, but the value others place on it depends on what other sources they have used in forming their views. You seem proud of having formed your fixed opinion on this subject half a century ago (in your teens?) and having resolutely ignored all other sources of info except people who share your view (or are reluctant to engage with somebody with a fixed opinion.) I'm happy to believe it's unintentional, even that you cannot see what's happening, but you goad people into attacking your comments. Often.

Wad some pow'r the giftie gie us etc

Quite!
What's betting Mick replies that he doesn't care,and still gives no sensible reason for his closed mind view ?

[thirdcrank]

TC.
I'll paraphrase a repetition.

From all my memories, I have always not wanted to be in Europe, be it part of it, or in it. UK is an independent country, not part of anywhere in my opinion.

I'm never been ardent about this and never upset or worried about it. We were asked as an electorate back in the 70s if we wanted to continue. I voted to stop us being in it.
We were asked again in 2016, and I voted Out .......... as we all know.

Am I concerned about remaining or leaving? Am I bitter and twisted about all this?
No not at all. Not in the slightest. It's easier to stay in, but it's harder to leave - I will agree.

I want to leave, like I've always wanted to do, but I won't die in a ditch over this. If we remain, do I care? Not much. (Shrugs shoulders and carries on)

I was asked, and I answered.
Binary question.
That's all there is to it.

All I can say is that I really did try.