** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

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thirdcrank
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Re: Brexit means Brexit

Post by thirdcrank »

I made that point as part of a rather gloomy assessment of the possibility of a dictator - Hitler and Mussolini were mentioned - coming to power in the UK.

I tried to show how some of the factors which helped Hitler's success were already in place and that it might not take much to trigger a repeat. When Tejero burst into the Cortes with a number of soldiers etc., shooting wildly, there was a real possibility of a return to the Fascist state of Franco, who had only died a few years earlier. No doubt there were others things which affected the outcome but Franco's protégé going on the box in uniform was important. Had he given his support to the coup, it would not have ended so quickly.

I can see all sorts wrong with our society and in this context we now have what amounts to an elected serial dictatorship.

On the subject of Jeremy Corbyn, by far the greater part of what I've heard has been through the Establishment-controlled media, so I'd be slow to comment. In the dictatorship stakes, I'd not accuse him of being an orator (see above.) It's seems true that the Establishment (in the shape of Baroness Jowell of Brixton, Tessa Jowell "as was") let the genie out of the bottle when they let the wider membership of the Labour Party have their say. Arguably, a media stunt thatbackfired.
thirdcrank
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Re: Brexit means Brexit

Post by thirdcrank »

thirdcrank wrote:The thing that has changed is that what was once a cabinet system, with a prime minister first among others each with their own portfolio responsibilities, has become a presidency, without a directly elected president. ...


There are various media reports about an example this morning. It's reported that the Foreign Secretary, or Court Jester if you prefer, has been making public comments about Brexit, which have presumably not been agreed by the Cabinet. Meanwhile, sources at No 10 have dismissed what has been said, noting that the decision to trigger Article 50 is the Prime Minister's and hers alone. So, we not only have Downing Street briefing against the recently appointed Foreign Secretary, but no mention of the Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union. His portfolio is just about as closely defined as it could possibly be, no vague Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster or Lord Chamberlain of the Lower Bedchamber, but he doesn't seem to get a look in. Meanwhile, Brexit means Brexit means Brexit.

Brexit and circu....mlocutions. :lol:
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bovlomov
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Re: Brexit means Brexit

Post by bovlomov »

thirdcrank wrote:It's reported that the Foreign Secretary, or Court Jester if you prefer, has been making public comments about Brexit, which have presumably not been agreed by the Cabinet. Meanwhile, sources at No 10 have dismissed what has been said, noting that the decision to trigger Article 50 is the Prime Minister's and hers alone. :

A couple of weeks ago the Brexit minister set out his views before Parliament, but he had hardly sat down before he was undermined by a statement from the PM's office.

A collegiate style of government would, I think, make better decisions, but it would be seen by the press as weak. Better an incompetent dictatorial style.
mercalia
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Re: Brexit means Brexit

Post by mercalia »

bovlomov wrote:
thirdcrank wrote:It's reported that the Foreign Secretary, or Court Jester if you prefer, has been making public comments about Brexit, which have presumably not been agreed by the Cabinet. Meanwhile, sources at No 10 have dismissed what has been said, noting that the decision to trigger Article 50 is the Prime Minister's and hers alone. :

A couple of weeks ago the Brexit minister set out his views before Parliament, but he had hardly sat down before he was undermined by a statement from the PM's office.

A collegiate style of government would, I think, make better decisions, but it would be seen by the press as weak. Better an incompetent dictatorial style.


dont agree. should be cross party. we saw too much of this partisan rubbish during the referendum. not time for some single persons view ?
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bovlomov
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Re: Brexit means Brexit

Post by bovlomov »

mercalia wrote:dont agree. should be cross party. we saw too much of this partisan rubbish during the referendum. not time for some single persons view ?

Oh! I was summarising the likely attitude of the press rather than my own views. I quite agree - a non partisan (or cross-party) approach to policy-making would be preferable. Disagreement makes for better policy, whatever it is.

For example, whether you think rail privatisation is a good thing, or a bad thing, there's little doubt that privatisation would have been more successful had the then government listened to critics. As it was, the policy was pushed through by the whips, with absolutely no regard paid to criticism - constructive or otherwise. That's why it was a disaster and has been subject to constant meddling and revision ever since. Westminster being divided into pro- and anti- did the country no favours.

Many partisan types would rather have their pet policies imposed, even though the are doomed to failure, than to see any successful consensus. If I was a Tory I would have been hopping mad to see what happened to rail privatisation. Yet many were still defending it years later, for no other reason than it was the contrary position to nationalised British Rail.
thirdcrank
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Re: Brexit means Brexit

Post by thirdcrank »

I only posted earlier because there was some discussion about the constitutional position of a prime minister who had not been leading their party at the time of a General Election ie selected mid-term by their own party's procedures (and in-fighting.)

We have (Her Majesty's) Government and (Her Majesty's Loyal) Opposition. Not a situation calculated to foster cross-party co-operation, even when both sides have almost identical policies. With regard to this policy area, the biggest splits seem to be between several different parts of the Government and the Tories. Brexit means Brexit will only satisfy them all for as long as it isn't revealed to mean anything more. The phony war will then be over.
blackbike
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Re: Brexit means Brexit

Post by blackbike »

mercalia wrote:
dont agree. should be cross party. we saw too much of this partisan rubbish during the referendum. not time for some single persons view ?


Why should the Brexit process be cross party?

Elected majority governments usually do what they want and I see no reason for that to change now.

It seems to me that many on the 'liberal', left, Labour side of things are becoming disenchanted with the normal rules of our democracy now that they are out of power.

Of course, when they were in power they were perfectly happy with them, and we heard no calls for cross party approaches as they pushed through all the laws they wanted.
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bovlomov
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Re: Brexit means Brexit

Post by bovlomov »

blackbike wrote:
mercalia wrote:
dont agree. should be cross party. we saw too much of this partisan rubbish during the referendum. not time for some single persons view ?


Why should the Brexit process be cross party?

Elected majority governments usually do what they want and I see no reason for that to change now.

It seems to me that many on the 'liberal', left, Labour side of things are becoming disenchanted with the normal rules of our democracy now that they are out of power.

Of course, when they were in power they were perfectly happy with them, and we heard no calls for cross party approaches as they pushed through all the laws they wanted.

They, they they....

You have made my point very well. Whether one believes we should be in the EU or not - we have arrived at a situation where an absurdly polarised debate (before the vote) has propelled us into completely uncharted territory with unknown consequences. Neither the Leave camp nor the Remain camps had any plan for what would happen after a Leave vote, and no one has any idea what Brexit means in practice. Yet it bothers you not a jot that, with wiser heads on all sides, there may have been a well-managed Brexit. You are delighted to have won, however disastrous it may be, simply because 'they' lost.

We all lose though. Well done!
PDQ Mobile
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Re: Brexit means Brexit

Post by PDQ Mobile »

bovlomov wrote:Neither the Leave camp nor the Remain camps had any plan for what would happen after a Leave vote, and no one has any idea what Brexit means in practice. Yet it bothers you not a jot that, with wiser heads on all sides, there may have been a well-managed Brexit. You are delighted to have won, however disastrous it may be, simply because 'they' lost.

We all lose though. Well done!


+1
The pound just hit newish low.
We will all lose. :(
Last edited by PDQ Mobile on 23 Sep 2016, 1:12pm, edited 1 time in total.
blackbike
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Re: Brexit means Brexit

Post by blackbike »

bovlomov wrote:
You have made my point very well. Whether one believes we should be in the EU or not - we have arrived at a situation where an absurdly polarised debate (before the vote) has propelled us into completely uncharted territory with unknown consequences.


There is nothing particularly polarised about the Brexit debate. Opinion is often polarised to a similar degree on other political topics.

And as for going into completely uncharted territory, that's what we did when we joined the EEC. Nobody told us it would morph into a hugely bureaucratic, authoritarian organisation with aims to control every aspect of our lives, that it would admit lots of poor counties with people eager to emigrate to the UK, or that its crackpot single currency scheme would cause poverty and unemployment in the southern countries.

We have elected a Conservative government and we have voted for Brexit, and in these circumstances it is entirely normal that the Conservative Party should decide how Brexit happens, not Labour, the Greens or anyone else.

Let's not forget that Labour was not even interested in the popular opinion on EU membership and did not want a referendum at all, so why should they be consulted on how to implement Brexit?
PDQ Mobile
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Re: Brexit means Brexit

Post by PDQ Mobile »

blackbike wrote:And as for going into completely uncharted territory, that's what we did when we joined the EEC. Nobody told us it would morph into a hugely bureaucratic, authoritarian organisation with aims to control every aspect of our lives, that it would admit lots of poor counties with people eager to emigrate to the UK, or that its crackpot single currency scheme would cause poverty and unemployment in the southern countries.


IMHO the main cause of the economic woes were and are the financial crisis brought about by crazy speculation by banks and other financial institutions. More control of those institutions by our own Govt and the EU may well have averted what has happened.
Whether it (EU)was overly beaurocratic or not at least we had our seats around the table to input our views. Now we look like losing those voices.
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bovlomov
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Re: Brexit means Brexit

Post by bovlomov »

PDQ Mobile wrote: More control of those institutions by our own Govt and the EU may well have averted what has happened.

And the arch-eurosceptics were among the loudest voices against financial regulation.
thirdcrank
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Re: Brexit means Brexit

Post by thirdcrank »

bovlomov wrote: You have made my point very well. ...


And you in turn have made one I've been reluctant to mention, but is implicit in the Brexit means Brexit mantra.

Our parliamentary system involves the election of individual candidates but who have next-to-no-chance standing as independents. Enter the political parties. At General Elections political parties publish manifestoes and increasingly select their candidates centrally and they are expected to support their party's manifesto. Manifestoes are often written in weazel words so they can cover all sorts but at least they are commitments of a sort.

Whatever the benefits of a single question in/out referendum, it doesn't sit easily with our parliamentary system. Some commentators have suggested that the opportunity to give the Establishment a KITA was gleefully seized on by many, and fair enough, but so far, we've only had talk. There was all manner of stuff bandied about in the run-up to the Referendum which was not directly associated with the policy of any candidates or their parties. At this stage, while being pleased to be on the majority side, it's easy to explain that everybody knew that eg all the £££ for the NHS was only a "serving suggestion" not the actual contents of the tin, but eventually firm policies must emerge. Attempts to integrate Brexit with the parliamentary system seem to be derided as the sour grapes of Remainers. All jolly good fun but it just serves to mask any lack of policy.

I voted Remain but the vote went the other way and I'm democratically-minded enough to respect it, but that doesn't disqualify me from taking a view on the eventual arrangements or, indeed, the negotiations in getting there.

Had I voted Brexit, I'd be worried that the only reassurance I was receiving was virtually meaningless.

(Loads of posts as I was working on this.)
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bovlomov
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Re: Brexit means Brexit

Post by bovlomov »

thirdcrank wrote:Had I voted Brexit, I'd be worried that the only reassurance I was receiving was virtually meaningless.

That's if you think about Brexit as a policy. If you think of it as your team, then you'll simply be happy that you beat the other side.
pwa
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Re: Brexit means Brexit

Post by pwa »

I sided with Brexit in spite of Boris, Gove and Farage, and didn't really listen to the ideas they put forward. So it doesn't concern me if their ideas were or were not valid.

Brexit was always going to be forged by the UK Government and the EU, together and through negotiation. Anyone who is surprised that we don't yet have a clear picture of what Brexit will be is easily surprised. This period of uncertainty is inevitable. What we can say with certainty is that the eventual deal will be one in which the EU and UK continue to trade fairly freely, even if not as freely as at present. And there will be some control over migration between the EU and UK. I'd like continued membership of the Single Market, but if that is not on offer, fine, let's slap tariffs on VW cars and Dutch tomatoes if we have to. If that's how they like it, that's how it will be. That would be silly, of course, but the EU is not above being silly.
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