** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

[pete75]

Another supporter of brexit delusion shattered - they claimed we'd have our own, better trade deals with non EU countries. Now it seems the government is begging third party countries to keep in place EU trade deals for trading with the UK. http://www.politico.eu/article/uk-wants ... er-brexit/ Didn't take long to go from better deals to lucky to have the EU ones...
Was David Davis in the navy at some time?

[bertgrower]

well it will hurt the Germans for one? I think that article said we paid 14% of the EU budget - thats 14% the Germans will have to pick up for one? They will have to cut down on the Schnapps? I cant see the net beneficeries ( most of them ) giving up their part of the gravy train. None of this needed to happen had the EU shown some flexability and understood the UKs problems rather than stick their heads in the sands and poke their behinds our ways?

TBH that's proper little england talk who doesn't get the whole idea of what the EU is about.

And you didn't answer my questions

y



How much of that 14% we paid came back to the UK in one kind or a other ?

[reohn2]

How much of that 14% we paid came back to the UK in one kind or a other ?

I don't know is the simple answer.
I do know if the only thing you join a club is for what you can get out,they won't let you join.
There has to be a membership fee or input.

[Ben@Forest]

How much of that 14% we paid came back to the UK in one kind or a other ?

I don't know is the simple answer.
I do know if the only thing you join a club is for what you can get out,they won't let you join.
There has to be a membership fee or input.

There are various ways you can look at the stats but the UK has been at least the third largest contributor to the EU (even factoring in the rebate) and by some measures the second. Countries like Poland and Romania have been massive recipients (for what input?) and even countries like Spain and Portugal have been big recipients - between 2010 and 2014 Britain's contribution was equivalent to what those two countries took out.

All sorts of justifications can be made for this. In 2003 I remember being at a conference where a speaker stated that our EU contribution was a good thing because it meant that by 2018 the Baltic states (Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia) would be at EU average levels of wages, costs, trading prices etc which would mean that their timber would be at a parity with our our timber production costs - and that everything would therefore be fairer. This patently hasn't happened (and it hasn't happened comparing the Baltic states with rich Eurozone countries like Germany either).

Fact is the EU is a flawed economic model - other models may also have flaws, but don't tell me the EU's model is intrinsically better.

[mercalia]

How much of that 14% we paid came back to the UK in one kind or a other ?

I don't know is the simple answer.
I do know if the only thing you join a club is for what you can get out,they won't let you join.
There has to be a membership fee or input.

on that basis the EU should only have half a dozen members? as regards memership fees - normally that means a flat rate fee as it is to join the CTC not some kind of rising scale that removes money from what is already a stretched state at home - until recently we were paying child benefit at UK rates to those with famiies in Eastern Europe, they & their countrys were laughing all the way to the bank and still are since the kids are not in the UK at all and should be paid for by their home country by any sense of justice? But thats the EU for you, full of grandiouse ideas but short on practical justice or sense

[reohn2]

.

Fact is the EU is a flawed economic model - other models may also have flaws, but don't tell me the EU's model is intrinsically better.

I've never claimed then EU to be perfect or less flawed than other systems,but one thing's for sure we'll never make it better whilst on the outside looking in!

[reohn2]

How much of that 14% we paid came back to the UK in one kind or a other ?

I don't know is the simple answer.
I do know if the only thing you join a club is for what you can get out,they won't let you join.
There has to be a membership fee or input.

on that basis the EU should only have half a dozen members? as regards memership fees - normally that means a flat rate fee as it is to join the CTC not some kind of rising scale that removes money from what is already a stretched state at home - until recently we were paying child benefit at UK rates to those with famiies in Eastern Europe, they & their countrys were laughing all the way to the bank and still are since the kids are not in the UK at all and should be paid for by their home country by any sense of justice? But thats the EU for you, full of grandiouse ideas but short on practical justice or sense

Like I posted earlier some people don't or won't understand the ethos of the EU .
If you think this country is stretched,think again,and look around at how the rich prosper at the expence of the poor and how successive governments failmin doing anything about it,watch how industry is depleted and how this government has allowed it to happen,the most recent being steel,theyve allowed China to dump steel on the UK at below cost whilst our own steel,industry is run down and its workers and surrounding areas run down with it whilst cutting taxes for the highest earners and cutting corperation tax to well below EU levels.
Those aren't the fault of the EU,they're the governments fault.
Who decreed the government should pay child benefit to foreign workers families living in their homeland?

And all will be fine and dandy once we're on the outside looking in,dream on...

[Psamathe]

How much of that 14% we paid came back to the UK in one kind or a other ?

I don't know is the simple answer.
I do know if the only thing you join a club is for what you can get out,they won't let you join.
There has to be a membership fee or input.

on that basis the EU should only have half a dozen members? as regards memership fees - normally that means a flat rate fee as it is to join the CTC not some kind of rising scale that removes money from what is already a stretched state at home - until recently we were paying child benefit at UK rates to those with famiies in Eastern Europe, they & their countrys were laughing all the way to the bank and still are since the kids are not in the UK at all and should be paid for by their home country by any sense of justice? But thats the EU for you, full of grandiouse ideas but short on practical justice or sense

You need to do more research rather than just listening so Daily Mail soundbites. The EU has strict regs limiting the social benefits EU citizens resident outside their country of nationality can claim. They have a sliding scale that only allows more social benefits as the individual becomes more integrated into the country, pays taxes, NI/Social Charge, length they have resided there, etc.

You also need to remember how the same applies to British Citizens living on other EU member states.

You also need to appreciate that life is far more complex than any "flat rate" can accommodate. Your example of the CTC's "flat rate" ... well I paid half the rate that an employed person would pay so why should the subsidise me? And family membership effectively means that single employed people subsidise those as well. So Single employed seem to subsidise pretty well everybody else - not really fair by your own judgement. And why should somebody on a zero hours contract (but employed) be subsidising somebody on a £50k per year pension?

If you think countries are joining just because they can get some money out you have completely missed the point of the EU and how it works.

Ian

[mercalia]

I don't know is the simple answer.
I do know if the only thing you join a club is for what you can get out,they won't let you join.
There has to be a membership fee or input.

on that basis the EU should only have half a dozen members? as regards memership fees - normally that means a flat rate fee as it is to join the CTC not some kind of rising scale that removes money from what is already a stretched state at home - until recently we were paying child benefit at UK rates to those with famiies in Eastern Europe, they & their countrys were laughing all the way to the bank and still are since the kids are not in the UK at all and should be paid for by their home country by any sense of justice? But thats the EU for you, full of grandiouse ideas but short on practical justice or sense

You need to do more research rather than just listening so Daily Mail soundbites. The EU has strict regs limiting the social benefits EU citizens resident outside their country of nationality can claim. They have a sliding scale that only allows more social benefits as the individual becomes more integrated into the country, pays taxes, NI/Social Charge, length they have resided there, etc.

You also need to remember how the same applies to British Citizens living on other EU member states.

You also need to appreciate that life is far more complex than any "flat rate" can accommodate. Your example of the CTC's "flat rate" ... well I paid half the rate that an employed person would pay so why should the subsidise me? And family membership effectively means that single employed people subsidise those as well. So Single employed seem to subsidise pretty well everybody else - not really fair by your own judgement. And why should somebody on a zero hours contract (but employed) be subsidising somebody on a £50k per year pension?

If you think countries are joining just because they can get some money out you have completely missed the point of the EU and how it works.

Ian

as I said grandious ideas but the practice is diferent, the poor EU countries joined to benefit from the subsidies ( and to export their otherwise unemployd )

[Psamathe]

on that basis the EU should only have half a dozen members? as regards memership fees - normally that means a flat rate fee as it is to join the CTC not some kind of rising scale that removes money from what is already a stretched state at home - until recently we were paying child benefit at UK rates to those with famiies in Eastern Europe, they & their countrys were laughing all the way to the bank and still are since the kids are not in the UK at all and should be paid for by their home country by any sense of justice? But thats the EU for you, full of grandiouse ideas but short on practical justice or sense

You need to do more research rather than just listening so Daily Mail soundbites. The EU has strict regs limiting the social benefits EU citizens resident outside their country of nationality can claim. They have a sliding scale that only allows more social benefits as the individual becomes more integrated into the country, pays taxes, NI/Social Charge, length they have resided there, etc.

You also need to remember how the same applies to British Citizens living on other EU member states.

You also need to appreciate that life is far more complex than any "flat rate" can accommodate. Your example of the CTC's "flat rate" ... well I paid half the rate that an employed person would pay so why should the subsidise me? And family membership effectively means that single employed people subsidise those as well. So Single employed seem to subsidise pretty well everybody else - not really fair by your own judgement. And why should somebody on a zero hours contract (but employed) be subsidising somebody on a £50k per year pension?

If you think countries are joining just because they can get some money out you have completely missed the point of the EU and how it works.

Ian

as I said grandious ideas but the practice is diferent

Why do some areas of the UK receive extra funding, subsidised by other areas. Is it "fair" that some regions subsidise other regions ? The focus on who gets what, who gets/gives most, getting more back than you put in in terms of € (money) illustrates how many have completely missed the point of the EU.

And we are now seeing daily economic and business reports that show how the UK has been getting more out than it put in, maybe not in terms of direct £ but in economic terms. So many illustrations about the positive impact and when we announce we are leaving how our economy starts suffering (and badly). Today it's construction

UK construction 'flirting with recession' as Brexit uncertainty bites
Growth slows to one-year low with analysts as Brexit delays investment plans and saps demand for new office space

But different reports every day. If we were getting so little how come leaving is becoming such a disaster (we are now lowest growth of any of the other EU member states close to half the growth of Greece - who our politicians only recently were quoting as an illustration of a failed economy).

You CTC membership is maybe a good illustration: do you get more out than you put in. Many pay £40'ish but do they get more than £40 worth of monetary value back? (Cycle magazine used to be worthless). Answer: No - it's the less tangible things people pay for, campaigns, safer cycling being campaigned for, improved road conditions, etc. You are not buying something worth more than you pay for! Same with EU, as the UK economy is now showing, it's the intangible indirect benefits where the real gains lie.

Ian

[mjr]

To me it is obvious that the EU's staff are simply out of their depth when dealing with people who don't exhibit servility and who don't show them the utmost reverence and respect.

The organisation should hire skilled negotiators who have experience of tough talks between equal partners. Their current people sound like pompous, poor schoolteachers who demand obedience and are appalled and shocked when they don't get it.

Many of the EU's negotiators and civil servants were British until recently, but a surprising number have chosen to become Belgian, French, German, Maltese, Cypriot and so on (mostly through residency AIUI, sometimes through their marriages or ancestry and sometimes through preference fast-track schemes for government workers - most EU states see the EU as part of their government, not as something external), rather than return to Brextremist Britain. So it's rather incredible to insult the same people that the UK tried to persuade to join its negotiating team, just because they decided to keep working towards what was for many of them, their life's work!

[mjr]

Another supporter of brexit delusion shattered - they claimed we'd have our own, better trade deals with non EU countries. Now it seems the government is begging third party countries to keep in place EU trade deals for trading with the UK. http://www.politico.eu/article/uk-wants ... er-brexit/ Didn't take long to go from better deals to lucky to have the EU ones...
Was David Davis in the navy at some time?

Not as far as I can tell. Wikipedia claims he was in the Territorial Army 21 Special Air Service Regiment (Artists) (Reserve) while trying to earn enough money for retakes while working as an insurance clerk, then he went on to undergraduate, postgraduate master's, then Tate and Lyle for 13 years, backbench MP for 7 years, Europe Minister for 3 years under Major, Conservative Party Chairman, Shadow Deputy PM, Shadow Home Secretary, resigned as an MP over erosion of civil liberties, re-elected to the backbenches again and now Brexit Secretary since last year.

[Psamathe]

......
The organisation should hire skilled negotiators who have experience of tough talks between equal partners.....

Except it is the UK who is wanting Trade Agreements, who is wanting to break previous commitments, we are the ones making demands on them not the other way round. They are not asking us for Trade Agreements or if they can join in the UK's world trade domination fantasy.

Our economy is tanking, lowest growth of any EU member state (thanks to Brexit). We need them to help us out of the hole we are frantically digging, so when we start insulting them (e.g. calling them "silly") - maybe the UK should be seeking those experienced negotiators.

What is interesting is how little attention the rest of the EU is taking of this drama. We are now irrelevant to them (we are even being sidelined in summit talks) - and it was our choice to take that path.

Ian

[reohn2]

............ so when we start insulting them (e.g. calling them "silly") .........

Ian

Or claiming they're blackmailing us

[pete75]

Was David Davis in the navy at some time?

Not as far as I can tell. Wikipedia claims he was in the Territorial Army 21 Special Air Service Regiment (Artists) (Reserve) while trying to earn enough money for retakes while working as an insurance clerk, then he went on to undergraduate, postgraduate master's, then Tate and Lyle for 13 years, backbench MP for 7 years, Europe Minister for 3 years under Major, Conservative Party Chairman, Shadow Deputy PM, Shadow Home Secretary, resigned as an MP over erosion of civil liberties, re-elected to the backbenches again and now Brexit Secretary since last year.[/quote]

Just thought it might explain his tattoo - the anchor surmounted by a W