** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

[reohn2]

So perhaps it would be useful to examine why such ostensibly simplistic arguments found favour? Also why the level of debate was so catastrophically low on both sides.

Because crowds tend be stupid IMHO and believe what they're told by people who promise the moon.
And Cameron/Osbourne believed they couldn't lose and didn't need to work at winning over the people they didnt think were daft enough to fall for the brexit spin and lies

At the same time we could look at Trump's rise, Macron, Berlusconi's rehabilitation, and others.

Because crowds tend be stupid IMHO,and unbelievably selfish,politrickians play to that outlook.

But I'll ask the simply question again,give me reason for hope the UK and by the UK I mean all the people of the UK,will benefit from leaving the EU.

[Bonefishblues]

As I say, I think that we need to look beyond the superficial for the whys as to people's behaviour. I simply don't believe that these are all stupid people.

[Audax67]

As of yesterday Mrs T42 & I completed our private Brexit and became FRENCH.

What a wonderful feeling.

French only?

No, we're keeping UK nationality because the Home Orifice now charges £1000 to renounce it - the rats increased it just recently when it emerged that the Netherlands required applicants for naturalisation to renounce their current nationality.

However, there's hope for those of them who have Irish connections: a friend of my wife's recently because Irish on the strength of her husband's uncle coming from Derry. Being from Norn Iron myself, we could both have taken the same route if all else failed.

[reohn2]

As I say, I think that we need to look beyond the superficial for the whys as to people's behaviour. I simply don't believe that these are all stupid people.

Time will tell.
But do you have any answers to the question I ask?

[Bonefishblues]

No.

[reohn2]

No.

Thanks as I thought like most people with a ha'worth of sense.
To me the current shambles not only shows up the abject stupidity of the brexit voters,but it also shows up the poor state the political landscape an to a great extent those in it.
And as I posted up thread what worries me mostly is what happens when al this shambles goes mammary glands up and screws really begin to tighten,who will the mob blaim for it all?

[Bonefishblues]

Where we differ is on the labelling of over half the UK population (extrapolating the vote) as stupid. Something more significant was at play here and elsewhere.

[661-Pete]

Everybody's 'stupid' by some measures and in some perceptions.

Where I fail, I suppose, is in that (for all my verbosity online) I don't have good powers of persuasion or argumentative skills. Perhaps that's seen as me being 'stupid', by some people. I'm sure that, if I were pounced upon in the street by a vox pop interviewer (that being the way so many pro/anti Brex**it views are sounded out, these days), I would stumble badly. And regret whatever I'd uttered, afterwards...

Nevertheless I think my understanding of the underlying issues is as good as anybody's. Others will no doubt disagree!

[reohn2]

Where we differ is on the labelling of over half the UK population (extrapolating the vote) as stupid. Something more significant was at play here and elsewhere.

They were stupid because they believed the promise of the moon on a stick,in the same way they believed in "strong and stable government"
They believed the spin!
They believed in immigration reduced to the tens of thousands* and all the undesirable immigrants would be on the next boat home.
They believed the UK would be able to trade better outside than in the EU.
They believed we were a little USA with the same sort of power in the world.
They believe in project fear.
They believed in the big red bus and the likes of BoJo,Fox,Moggie,Farage,et al
They believed they would take back control
The lemmings jumped!
What am I supposed to think????

*promised by the current PM years ago when she was the Home Sec!

[Cyril Haearn]

They were ignorant* and did not bother forming their own opinions

Many voted leave to send a shot across the bows of the govt, did not expect to "win"


* nothing wrong with that

[Bonefishblues]

@ R2

I don't think for a moment that people believed those things tbh, any more than US voters believed Trump's hyperbolic rantings.

This was an extraordinary opportunity at exactly the right time to stick one up the posterior of the ruling classes who had taken them for fools for a very, very long time. A bit like the diet of utter rowlocks that had been spouted by both sides during what passed for a debate during the lead up to the vote. Emergency Budget next Wednesday if you vote Leave, anyone? I mean c'mon, how low can you go in terms of your patronising of the Electorate - and of course the £350m Health Service bus is now legendary.

One interview summed it up for me. A Leave supporter was interviewed and asked if he thought he would be worse off. He thought for a while and answered that yes, he did think that, but that on balance it was a price worth paying.

Of course baser instincts were in play on both sides, I would acknowledge that, but we must be careful (and I accept it's now way too late, but I shall persist) to have a sensible, temperate debate in the best traditions of our country and in particular try to understand that things just ain't as black and white as many would like to paint them.

That's all

[reohn2]

They were ignorant* and did not bother forming their own opinions

Many voted leave to send a shot across the bows of the govt, did not expect to "win"


* nothing wrong with that

Best case yet for a second referendum now that they stand on the cliff edge.

[Cyril Haearn]

They were ignorant* and did not bother forming their own opinions

Many voted leave to send a shot across the bows of the govt, did not expect to "win"


* nothing wrong with that

Best case yet for a second referendum now that they stand on the cliff edge.

It would be close, maybe the result would be leave again, hard to believe, Minus 99

[661-Pete]

"...the ruling classes..."

Perhaps a definition is needed here?

[Bonefishblues]

Let's call them politicians in the main.