** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Use this board for general non-cycling-related chat, or to introduce yourself to the forum.
pete75
Posts: 10312
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby pete75 » 10 Jan 2019, 9:21pm

pwa wrote:it would be possible for the UK to end free movement but remain in a customs union and have access to the single market in lots of areas. The EU negotiators have said that. So there is a position that has the UK outside the EU but more closely aligned to it than May's plan.


When did they say that? They have been very firm on the four freedoms as far as I'm aware. You keep hoping for cake and eat it but it ain't gonna happen.

mercalia
Posts: 9201
Joined: 22 Sep 2013, 10:03pm
Location: london South

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mercalia » 10 Jan 2019, 9:28pm

Mays deal is not a bad one BUT for the backstop that will affect any deal - she should never have agreed to it as it prejudices any trade talks and puts the EU in a position of unfair advantage.

pwa
Posts: 8645
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby pwa » 10 Jan 2019, 9:31pm

pete75 wrote:
pwa wrote:it would be possible for the UK to end free movement but remain in a customs union and have access to the single market in lots of areas. The EU negotiators have said that. So there is a position that has the UK outside the EU but more closely aligned to it than May's plan.


When did they say that? They have been very firm on the four freedoms as far as I'm aware.

They say to be in the single market you have to do this, this and this, but then they allow access to parts of the single market in return for us doing X.Y and Z. They trade it in bits. And call it a trade agreement. The big obstacle to a relatively easy agreement has been May's refusal to enter into a customs union, with all that implies. Corbyn has talked about entering a customs union but ending free movement, claiming that would win freer access to EU markets.

pete75
Posts: 10312
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby pete75 » 10 Jan 2019, 10:28pm

pwa wrote:
pete75 wrote:
pwa wrote:it would be possible for the UK to end free movement but remain in a customs union and have access to the single market in lots of areas. The EU negotiators have said that. So there is a position that has the UK outside the EU but more closely aligned to it than May's plan.


When did they say that? They have been very firm on the four freedoms as far as I'm aware.

They say to be in the single market you have to do this, this and this, but then they allow access to parts of the single market in return for us doing X.Y and Z. They trade it in bits. And call it a trade agreement. The big obstacle to a relatively easy agreement has been May's refusal to enter into a customs union, with all that implies. Corbyn has talked about entering a customs union but ending free movement, claiming that would win freer access to EU markets.


No. The Eu leaders say the four freedoms which go with the single market are not up for negotiation. It beats me why you wnat to leave the EU and yet retain the advantages we have as members. I'd have thought as keen a Brexiter as yourself would go for a the compleat break offered by no deal. It's the best chance of stopping the immigration you so bitterly oppose.

User avatar
bovlomov
Posts: 3326
Joined: 5 Apr 2007, 7:45am
Contact:

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby bovlomov » 10 Jan 2019, 10:33pm

pete75 wrote:It's the best chance of stopping the immigration you so bitterly oppose.

I read this evening that the UK is the country with the highest number of intra-EU emigrants.

sizbut
Posts: 28
Joined: 2 Oct 2018, 11:56pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby sizbut » 10 Jan 2019, 11:01pm

Hardly surprising given that it has the 3rd largest population. They, the top five nations being German, France, UK, Italy and Spain, all have populations that dwarf all the other members by significant margins. In fact, even the immigrant populations of any of those 5 are larger than the whole populations of some other EU members.

So ranking on absolute numbers is pretty meaningless. In percentage terms, the UK is only 7th for both intra-EU and extra-EU immigrants.

But of course no-one gets anywhere near at the immigrant population levels of the Vatican.

User avatar
bovlomov
Posts: 3326
Joined: 5 Apr 2007, 7:45am
Contact:

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby bovlomov » 10 Jan 2019, 11:31pm

sizbut wrote:Hardly surprising given that it has the 3rd largest population. They, the top five nations being German, France, UK, Italy and Spain, all have populations that dwarf all the other members by significant margins. In fact, even the immigrant populations of any of those 5 are larger than the whole populations of some other EU members.

So ranking on absolute numbers is pretty meaningless. In percentage terms, the UK is only 7th for both intra-EU and extra-EU immigrants.

Not entirely meaningless. Among those five countries, the UK has the highest proportion of people emigrating. I don't remember anyone telling us that before the referendum, and it certainly wasn't in any newspaper headlines - which were all about immigrants coming here.

I think it's interesting, even if you don't.

sizbut
Posts: 28
Joined: 2 Oct 2018, 11:56pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby sizbut » 11 Jan 2019, 12:06am

Whoops, I should wake up and spot the difference between an i and an e. That said, percentage figures are still much more meaningful that absolute numbers due to the aforesaid variation in country sizes.

I couldn't find a good and reliable break down of the figures, but for EU countries, the number one emigrant destination for the majority of countries is Germany. And for the UK the number one emigrant destination is still Australia.

(And I didn't say anything about it being interesting! (or not))

pete75
Posts: 10312
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby pete75 » 11 Jan 2019, 7:39am

Once we've left the EU will all those Swallows still be let into the country? Each year they migrate from Africa crossing many EU countries where they could choose to settle. Once here they eat large quantities of insects , stealing them from the beaks of our own native species. Perhaps the French government could be more helpful and have falcon patrols over the channel to stop these birds entering the UK.

pwa
Posts: 8645
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby pwa » 11 Jan 2019, 8:26am

pete75 wrote:
pwa wrote:
pete75 wrote:
When did they say that? They have been very firm on the four freedoms as far as I'm aware.

They say to be in the single market you have to do this, this and this, but then they allow access to parts of the single market in return for us doing X.Y and Z. They trade it in bits. And call it a trade agreement. The big obstacle to a relatively easy agreement has been May's refusal to enter into a customs union, with all that implies. Corbyn has talked about entering a customs union but ending free movement, claiming that would win freer access to EU markets.


No. The Eu leaders say the four freedoms which go with the single market are not up for negotiation. It beats me why you wnat to leave the EU and yet retain the advantages we have as members. I'd have thought as keen a Brexiter as yourself would go for a the compleat break offered by no deal. It's the best chance of stopping the immigration you so bitterly oppose.

I was listening to a Radio 4 article looking back on the negotiations since May took over, and a decisive moment was deemed to be the speech May gave to a Tory Party Conference at which she made not being in a customs union a red line. Upto that point, the presenter stated, EU negotiators were getting ready to negotiate a close relationship. Not quite the Single Market, but very close to it in lots of areas. Corbyn wants a customs union and the closer trading relationship that enables, but he has also stated at one point that free movement must end. The point I am making here is that there is a binary choice between In/Out, as you say, but once Out has been chosen there is very much a sliding scale on that side.

User avatar
bovlomov
Posts: 3326
Joined: 5 Apr 2007, 7:45am
Contact:

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby bovlomov » 11 Jan 2019, 9:36am

pwa wrote:I was listening to a Radio 4 article looking back on the negotiations since May took over, and a decisive moment was deemed to be the speech May gave to a Tory Party Conference at which she made not being in a customs union a red line.

That speech was ridiculous at the time, and it has not improved with age.

It's worth reading again, just to see how wrong she was.

Wrong about Article 50,
So let me be absolutely clear. There will be no unnecessary delays in invoking Article Fifty. We will invoke it when we are ready. And we will be ready soon.

wrong in her interpretation of what the referendum meant,
The referendum result was clear. It was legitimate.

and wrong about her colleagues - her confidence in them being hilariously misplaced.
And let’s get behind the team of ministers – David Davis, Liam Fox, Priti Patel and Boris Johnson – who are working on our plan for Brexit, who know we’re going to make a success of it and who will make a reality of Global Britain.

And she ended with a punchline from the wrong joke.
And let’s keep working to make Britain a country that works not for a privileged few but for everyone in this great country.

thirdcrank
Posts: 27605
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby thirdcrank » 11 Jan 2019, 9:58am

There was a Tory party political broadcast around 7pm last night. They don't seem to have learned that having TM spout slogans is not necessarily a vote winner. Perhaps she's trying to frighten her troops into backing her to avoid a general election. "I don't know if she frightens the Labour Party but .... etc "

User avatar
bovlomov
Posts: 3326
Joined: 5 Apr 2007, 7:45am
Contact:

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby bovlomov » 11 Jan 2019, 10:19am

thirdcrank wrote:There was a Tory party political broadcast around 7pm last night. They don't seem to have learned that having TM spout slogans is not necessarily a vote winner. Perhaps she's trying to frighten her troops into backing her to avoid a general election. "I don't know if she frightens the Labour Party but .... etc "

Did she smile into the camera?

thirdcrank
Posts: 27605
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby thirdcrank » 11 Jan 2019, 10:33am

The Beeb always has a note at the end of these broadcasts saying they are available online, although you would have to be a glutton for punishment to check.

User avatar
bovlomov
Posts: 3326
Joined: 5 Apr 2007, 7:45am
Contact:

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby bovlomov » 11 Jan 2019, 10:56am

thirdcrank wrote:The Beeb always has a note at the end of these broadcasts saying they are available online, although you would have to be a glutton for punishment to check.

Thanks. Here goes.....