** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

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kwackers
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby kwackers » 2 Feb 2019, 10:21am

mercalia wrote:Cannt have it both ways.

Actually they can have it any way they like as was pointed out before the referendum.

"They need us more than we need them", yeah right.

It's not going to matter anyway, the UK was great before it'll be great again. When we're out they'll be desperate to do a deal, they'll probably pay us to take their stuff.

I was just reading that our former brexit secretary; Mr Raab hadn't actually read the GFA, no surprise there. Most of the government don't understand what it is they're trying to do.

Ship of fools heading for the rocks.
Sit back, get some popcorn and let the entertainment continue.

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mercalia » 2 Feb 2019, 10:30am

Cunobelin wrote:... an before we have any more bleating about the GFA, lets actually look at how the Government itself is already breaking it and ignoring the basic tenets of the agreement


Lets get back to the basics...... supporters of brexit demanded that we took back control of the borders without even considering the consequences because of a irrational fear of immigration. Now we have exactly what he people voted for, we apparently want to blame someone else for that decision

Seems to me that we are not only stockpiling food and medicines but also scapegoats to blame for our own stupidity and folly


well it seems that the issue invlolved is being contested thru the courts and will only be settled when it reaches the Supreme court - that is how it should be? Sad that these matters clarifying the law always costs individuals so much? Onthe other hand since the lady feels so strong about being Irish she could as the home office suggested renounce her British identity ( or go and live in Eire for a time) ? So it is not clear whether the UK is breaking the GFA or not, yet
Last edited by mercalia on 2 Feb 2019, 10:46am, edited 3 times in total.

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Cunobelin
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Cunobelin » 2 Feb 2019, 10:34am

mercalia wrote:
Cunobelin wrote:
mercalia wrote:
yes exactly what they have done

I relish the thought of the EU having to break the GFA and impose a hard border that Eire have to police - its what Eire deserves - they should have known better. The EU don't want a sensible approach only one that satisfies their rules and <expletive deleted> the British, why the backstop is all wrong.



The other point is that the EU is not a signatory of the GFA, so we have no more rights to make them consider or comply with it than the EU has to make us consider an independent agreement between Germany and France, or Italy and Macedonia (choose your own combination) as part of this process

As for Eire, they are the innocent victims of the unilateral decision of the UK to recover, maintain and enforce its borders. Eire never had say in the matte.

so why are they butting in then now in the backstop unless they are using it as a ruse to really protect the EU. They should have told the Irish that sorry the GFA is a matter between you and the Uk and we cannot get involved, any issue of hard borders can only be discussed after the UK has left as it is part of the trade talks. Cannt have it both ways.



Perhaps they are "butting in" because the bit joining the two is a border, not anything to do withe GFA at all?

A border between the EU and the UK..... the one that we have unequivocally voted to control (Will of the People and all that)

It is increasingly bizarre that there is an objection to them discussing a border that we imposed on them.

I am fully aware that for some the EU not rolling over and accepting every single UK demand is very, very naughty, but realistically, we imposed all of these problems and the EU has every right to an opinion


You are partially right about informing the people, but lets be truthful?


We should have told the Irish that sorry the GFA is a matter between Eire and the UK (Two sovereign states acting independently of the EU) and we have not considered any of this when we voted for Brexit. We didn't consider the effect of demanding control of the border, or that the border is integral to trade and customs, so can only be discussed after the UK has left as it is part of the trade talks. We really thought that we could have it both ways.
Last edited by Cunobelin on 2 Feb 2019, 10:41am, edited 1 time in total.

mercalia
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mercalia » 2 Feb 2019, 10:41am

Cunobelin wrote:
mercalia wrote:
Cunobelin wrote:

The other point is that the EU is not a signatory of the GFA, so we have no more rights to make them consider or comply with it than the EU has to make us consider an independent agreement between Germany and France, or Italy and Macedonia (choose your own combination) as part of this process

As for Eire, they are the innocent victims of the unilateral decision of the UK to recover, maintain and enforce its borders. Eire never had say in the matte.

so why are they butting in then now in the backstop unless they are using it as a ruse to really protect the EU. They should have told the Irish that sorry the GFA is a matter between you and the Uk and we cannot get involved, any issue of hard borders can only be discussed after the UK has left as it is part of the trade talks. Cannt have it both ways.



Perhaps they are "butting in" because the bit joining the two is a border?

A border between the EU and the UK..... the one that we have unequivocally voted to control (Will of the People and all that)

It is increasingly bizarre that there is an objection to them discussing a border that we imposed on them.


I am fully aware that for some the EU not rolling over and accepting every single UK demand is very, very naughty, but realistically, we imposed all of these problems and the EU has every right to an opinion


You are partially right about informing the people, but lets be truthful?


We should have told the Irish that sorry the GFA is a matter between Eire and the UK (Two sovereign states acting independently of the EU) and we have not considered any of this when we voted for Brexit. We didn't consider the effect of demanding control of the border, or that the border is integral to trade and customs, so can only be discussed after the UK has left as it is part of the trade talks. W really thought that we could have it both ways.


Of course they they can discuss the border issues and custom unions AT THE RIGHT TIME AFTER WE LEAVE. I would remind you that the EU has a policy of not discussing trade issues until we have left the EU as they would be with a third country? By butting in on the GFA they have prejudged outcomes of the trade talks to the UKs detriment, that was intentional, why they were so quick to interfer in the GFA requirements

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby PDQ Mobile » 2 Feb 2019, 10:44am

Quote cunobolin:-
" "It is increasingly bizarre that there is an objection to them discussing a border that we imposed.""

Yes and it's not even a border yet but discussion about a border!
Totally understandable and necessary.

Yet you see the all pervasive power and influence of the media when it comes to creating an enemy.
No matter how illusory that enemy actually is.

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Cunobelin
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Cunobelin » 2 Feb 2019, 10:48am

mercalia wrote:
Cunobelin wrote:
mercalia wrote:so why are they butting in then now in the backstop unless they are using it as a ruse to really protect the EU. They should have told the Irish that sorry the GFA is a matter between you and the Uk and we cannot get involved, any issue of hard borders can only be discussed after the UK has left as it is part of the trade talks. Cannt have it both ways.



Perhaps they are "butting in" because the bit joining the two is a border?

A border between the EU and the UK..... the one that we have unequivocally voted to control (Will of the People and all that)

It is increasingly bizarre that there is an objection to them discussing a border that we imposed on them.


I am fully aware that for some the EU not rolling over and accepting every single UK demand is very, very naughty, but realistically, we imposed all of these problems and the EU has every right to an opinion


You are partially right about informing the people, but lets be truthful?


We should have told the Irish that sorry the GFA is a matter between Eire and the UK (Two sovereign states acting independently of the EU) and we have not considered any of this when we voted for Brexit. We didn't consider the effect of demanding control of the border, or that the border is integral to trade and customs, so can only be discussed after the UK has left as it is part of the trade talks. W really thought that we could have it both ways.


Of course they they can discuss the border issues and custom unions AT THE RIGHT TIME AFTER WE LEAVE. I would remind you that the EU has a policy of not discussing trade issues until we have left the EU as they would be with a third country?



I presume that the same applies to all the other borders then?

We are reclaiming unequivocal control of our borders except we are not really reclaiming control of any of the borders because border issues and custom unions can only be discussed AT THE RIGHT TIME AFTER WE LEAVE

So the concept is that the can't have any actual reclamation of borders as this is inappropriate until a discussion at some specified date in the future?

mercalia
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mercalia » 2 Feb 2019, 10:55am

Cunobelin wrote:
mercalia wrote:
Cunobelin wrote:

Perhaps they are "butting in" because the bit joining the two is a border?

A border between the EU and the UK..... the one that we have unequivocally voted to control (Will of the People and all that)

It is increasingly bizarre that there is an objection to them discussing a border that we imposed on them.


I am fully aware that for some the EU not rolling over and accepting every single UK demand is very, very naughty, but realistically, we imposed all of these problems and the EU has every right to an opinion


You are partially right about informing the people, but lets be truthful?


We should have told the Irish that sorry the GFA is a matter between Eire and the UK (Two sovereign states acting independently of the EU) and we have not considered any of this when we voted for Brexit. We didn't consider the effect of demanding control of the border, or that the border is integral to trade and customs, so can only be discussed after the UK has left as it is part of the trade talks. W really thought that we could have it both ways.


Of course they they can discuss the border issues and custom unions AT THE RIGHT TIME AFTER WE LEAVE. I would remind you that the EU has a policy of not discussing trade issues until we have left the EU as they would be with a third country?



I presume that the same applies to all the other borders then?



We are reclaiming unequivocal control of our borders except we are not really reclaiming control of any of the borders because border issues and custom unions can only be discussed AT THE RIGHT TIME AFTER WE LEAVE

So the concept is that the can't have any actual reclamation of borders as this is inappropriate until a discussion at some specified date in the future?



You ask the EU -the separation of Exit and Trade talks is a rule of the EUs making - it would be a slippery slope for the EU if they didnt maintain that view as then we could have got some concrete results about trade with the EU after Brexit? The EU has selectively picked what aspects of trade they want to include in the exit talks (under the guise of the GFA, to their advantage )

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby kwackers » 2 Feb 2019, 10:58am

mercalia wrote:You ask the EU -the separation of Exit and Trade talks is a rule of the EUs making - it would be a slippery slope for the EU is they didnt maintain that view as then we could have got some concrete results about trade with the EU after Brexit? The EU has selectively picked what aspects of trade they want to include in the exit talks ( to their advantage )

I don't understand why this is such a contentious issue.

We want borders, that's a fact. Nothing to do with trade talks.

The EU says that has to include a border between NI and SI.

We say no and the rest is history.

It's now a simple case of figuring out how there can be both a border and no border at the same time! Easy peasy!

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby roubaixtuesday » 2 Feb 2019, 11:28am

If I recall correctly, there were complaints upthread about leave campaigners being called insane.

An outsiders view from the Washington Post:

On Tuesday, British Prime Minister Theresa May demanded that her party reject her own Brexit plan so she could go back to negotiations with the European Union and dismantle an agreement that her government reached with the continent, on an impossibly fast timeline, during talks that have already been ruled out. On every level, it is an insane way to behave. The British government is actively sabotaging the work it has spent the past two years completing and then doing a victory dance.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/ ... story.html

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Cunobelin
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Cunobelin » 2 Feb 2019, 11:39am

kwackers wrote:
mercalia wrote:You ask the EU -the separation of Exit and Trade talks is a rule of the EUs making - it would be a slippery slope for the EU is they didnt maintain that view as then we could have got some concrete results about trade with the EU after Brexit? The EU has selectively picked what aspects of trade they want to include in the exit talks ( to their advantage )

I don't understand why this is such a contentious issue.

We want borders, that's a fact. Nothing to do with trade talks.

The EU says that has to include a border between NI and SI.

We say no and the rest is history.

It's now a simple case of figuring out how there can be both a border and no border at the same time! Easy peasy!



I still really cannot understand the mentality of many in that anything the EU does that in not instantly bowing to UK demands is unacceptable.

The naivety of people who did not think about any of the consequences or costs of their vote.

OF course the EU is going to act in its own interests, what sane, intelligent person could not have realised that, and he irony is that all theses "surprises" were clearly and unequivocally written into terms that we voluntarily signed

We imposed these borders on the EU and are now acting shock and indignant at the audacious possibility that these borders need to be enforced!

The basics are that we either have borders and enforce them, or we drop the borders completely.

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Cunobelin
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Cunobelin » 2 Feb 2019, 11:41am

mercalia wrote:
Cunobelin wrote:
mercalia wrote:
Of course they they can discuss the border issues and custom unions AT THE RIGHT TIME AFTER WE LEAVE. I would remind you that the EU has a policy of not discussing trade issues until we have left the EU as they would be with a third country?



I presume that the same applies to all the other borders then?



We are reclaiming unequivocal control of our borders except we are not really reclaiming control of any of the borders because border issues and custom unions can only be discussed AT THE RIGHT TIME AFTER WE LEAVE

So the concept is that the can't have any actual reclamation of borders as this is inappropriate until a discussion at some specified date in the future?



You ask the EU -the separation of Exit and Trade talks is a rule of the EUs making - it would be a slippery slope for the EU if they didnt maintain that view as then we could have got some concrete results about trade with the EU after Brexit? The EU has selectively picked what aspects of trade they want to include in the exit talks (under the guise of the GFA, to their advantage )



That was not the question. The question was whether we should be making similar demands for ALL our borders, not just the little bits where the "Will of the People" has become embarrassingly inconvenient

Should ALL borders not be part of this decision?

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georgew
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby georgew » 2 Feb 2019, 11:44am

mercalia wrote:
kwackers wrote:
mercalia wrote:just as the GFA wasnt an easy soln but here we are, The EU will only accept easy solns.

How long did the GFA take? How many years of conflict before we tried the sensible approach to sort it out?

If you don't want a deal then simply create red lines that nobody will accept and insist on sticking to them.

From where I'm sat the EU is looking after itself - and it's doing a pretty good job of it.
We otoh can't even agree on what we want.

If the country collapses post brexit then I'd have no sympathy for it or us. We absolutely deserve it, and tbh I'm beginning to relish the thought.


yes exactly what they have done

I relish the thought of the EU having to break the GFA and impose a hard border that Eire have to police - its what Eire deserves - they should have known better. The EU dont want a sensible approach only one that satisfies their rules and <expletive deleted> the British, why the backstop is all wrong.



Words fail me......insanity rules.

A Peace agreement negotiated and agreed by the UK Government who now put this at risk by seeking to placate members of the Tory Party..... and you dare to suggest that this is the fault of the Irish Government. The little Englander attitude exemplified in your comments...." their rules"...you mean the ones agreed to by the UK Government when they joined the EU.

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby NATURAL ANKLING » 2 Feb 2019, 12:23pm

Hi,
661-Pete wrote:
NATURAL ANKLING wrote:Not sure whats happening to day on politics, off for tea for one, probably 1/2 a tin on burnt bread :lol: Home made bread :)
Intriguing. Half a tin of what? However, I do approve of your home made bread habit! I may utterly disagree with your politics, but there are some good points.....

Could be herrings, soup, macaroni cheese, beans etc :)
Been making my own bread for about four probably five or more years.
Mate of mine was as usual ill after xmas...........tiger bread :?
Well that's what he blamed it on, I would have to look that up, sure its not eaten by or got some in it.

Edited
"Sainsbury's is renaming its tiger bread after a letter a three-year-old girl wrote to the company, saying the bread looked more like a giraffe, went viral. In May 2011, Lily Robinson wrote to the supermarket, suggesting that the bread should be called giraffe bread.31 Jan 2012"
So could have anything in it :lol:
If You Don't Try You Don't Do.....Don't Do You Don't Get...I'm Still Trying....Well Very..
You'll Find Me At The Top Of A Hill...............Somewhere...After Dark..

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Cunobelin
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Cunobelin » 2 Feb 2019, 12:55pm

georgew wrote:
mercalia wrote:
kwackers wrote:How long did the GFA take? How many years of conflict before we tried the sensible approach to sort it out?

If you don't want a deal then simply create red lines that nobody will accept and insist on sticking to them.

From where I'm sat the EU is looking after itself - and it's doing a pretty good job of it.
We otoh can't even agree on what we want.

If the country collapses post brexit then I'd have no sympathy for it or us. We absolutely deserve it, and tbh I'm beginning to relish the thought.


yes exactly what they have done

I relish the thought of the EU having to break the GFA and impose a hard border that Eire have to police - its what Eire deserves - they should have known better. The EU dont want a sensible approach only one that satisfies their rules and <expletive deleted> the British, why the backstop is all wrong.



Words fail me......insanity rules.

A Peace agreement negotiated and agreed by the UK Government who now put this at risk by seeking to placate members of the Tory Party..... and you dare to suggest that this is the fault of the Irish Government. The little Englander attitude exemplified in your comments...." their rules"...you mean the ones agreed to by the UK Government when they joined the EU.




This is about blame

The Referendum was poorly thought out, based on a series of lies and misleading claims. Also about many people not knowing what they were voting for, or simply voting Brexit to "give Politicians a bloody noise"

We are now exactly were any one with a modicum of sanity knew we would be, and panic is setting in that we are now in a "bit of a pickle" and need scapegoats to blame, rather than admit our mistakes. Johnny Foreigner has always been a convenient visit in the past, so why not now?

So of course Eire is to blame for us unilaterally taking control of the UK borders (including the Irish Border) otherwise we would have to admit to the naivety and stupidity of this farce

This exemplifies it completely:

The EU dont want a sensible approach only one that satisfies their rules and <expletive deleted> the British,


Translated that means that the EU have actually had the audacity to act in their own interests (quelle surpris) and not roll over and accept the UK demands in their entirety

Any approach that is not complete surrender and acquiescence to the UK demands is going to be unacceptable, outrageous and a deliberate affront the the "will of the people"

I mean to say who would've thought two groups coming to a meeting would both have opinions or agendas and seek to gain concessions for the group they represent?

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bigjim
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby bigjim » 2 Feb 2019, 1:31pm

Cunobelin wrote:
georgew wrote:
mercalia wrote:
yes exactly what they have done

I relish the thought of the EU having to break the GFA and impose a hard border that Eire have to police - its what Eire deserves - they should have known better. The EU dont want a sensible approach only one that satisfies their rules and <expletive deleted> the British, why the backstop is all wrong.



Words fail me......insanity rules.

A Peace agreement negotiated and agreed by the UK Government who now put this at risk by seeking to placate members of the Tory Party..... and you dare to suggest that this is the fault of the Irish Government. The little Englander attitude exemplified in your comments...." their rules"...you mean the ones agreed to by the UK Government when they joined the EU.




This is about blame

The Referendum was poorly thought out, based on a series of lies and misleading claims. Also about many people not knowing what they were voting for, or simply voting Brexit to "give Politicians a bloody noise"

We are now exactly were any one with a modicum of sanity knew we would be, and panic is setting in that we are now in a "bit of a pickle" and need scapegoats to blame, rather than admit our mistakes. Johnny Foreigner has always been a convenient visit in the past, so why not now?

So of course Eire is to blame for us unilaterally taking control of the UK borders (including the Irish Border) otherwise we would have to admit to the naivety and stupidity of this farce

This exemplifies it completely:

The EU dont want a sensible approach only one that satisfies their rules and <expletive deleted> the British,


Translated that means that the EU have actually had the audacity to act in their own interests (quelle surpris) and not roll over and accept the UK demands in their entirety

Any approach that is not complete surrender and acquiescence to the UK demands is going to be unacceptable, outrageous and a deliberate affront the the "will of the people"

I mean to say who would've thought two groups coming to a meeting would both have opinions or agendas and seek to gain concessions for the group they represent?

Which is what I said a few pages ago. The EU is doing it's job by looking after it's members and frustrating Brexit in order to keep club funds flowing. The UK PM has a mandate to leave the EU. That is her job, which she is not doing. She is doing everything she can to delay and keep paying the EU. In the private sector I imagine this would be Gross Misconduct. I don't know who is controlling her but it is not the electorate. A fair negotiation for all parties is impossible. You either leave or stay. End of!
Nothing left to prove.