** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

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Boyd
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Re: 'Brexit means Brexit' ... ** The Brexit Thread **

Postby Boyd » 13 Jan 2017, 12:01pm

blackbike wrote:The increasingly ludicrous and desperate arguments used by many Remainers to claim that the referendum result is invalid are beginning to make me doubt if they are as clever and educated as they modestly claim to be.

They believe in democracy as long as the results of it matches there views.

blackbike
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Re: 'Brexit means Brexit' ... ** The Brexit Thread **

Postby blackbike » 13 Jan 2017, 12:04pm

Most 16 to 18 year olds are stupid and uneducated.

That's precisely why the Labour Party wants them to be given the vote.

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mjr
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Re: 'Brexit means Brexit' ... ** The Brexit Thread **

Postby mjr » 13 Jan 2017, 12:05pm

Boyd wrote:Why has there been a 20% increase in people using A and E This year? Nothing to do with EU immigrants? Who often don't speak english so the NHS has to supply an interpreter. I note no TV stations are suggesting that as possibility. Not politically correct?

No "politically" about it. It's simply not correct. The increase in A and E usage seems to be linked with the increase in waiting times for primary care appointments as the funding and contract chickens of recent years start to come home to roost, doctors retire and newly-qualified ones opt less for general practice. Norfolk's just been given a six-figure additional funding package to reduce primary care times and I'd bet similar things are happening elsewhere. There's also a big ad campaign telling people to consult pharmacists or 111 before going to GPs or A&E.
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Psamathe
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Re: 'Brexit means Brexit' ... ** The Brexit Thread **

Postby Psamathe » 13 Jan 2017, 12:06pm

Boyd wrote:Why has there been a 20% increase in people using A and E This year? Nothing to do with EU immigrants? Who often don't speak english so the NHS has to supply an interpreter. I note no TV stations are suggesting that as possibility. Not politically correct?

Or maybe not factually correct. Maybe, if you are going to suggest that it is due to immigrants flooding our health service then you should provide some evidence/facts ?

All reports I've read are that the EU immigrants in the UK tend to be younger and thus healthier and thus make significantly lower demands on our health services. Whereas the British population is disproportionately aged and thus makes much higher demands of the health services.

And then you have to balance all those British people living in e.g. France or Spain who are making demands on e.g. the French or Spanish Health Services (rather than the UK health services) and demographically they are an older age group who tend to make higher demands on health services than younger people.

Ian

Boyd
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Re: 'Brexit means Brexit' ... ** The Brexit Thread **

Postby Boyd » 13 Jan 2017, 12:07pm

:mrgreen:
blackbike wrote:Most 16 to 18 year olds are stupid and uneducated.

That's precisely why the Labour Party wants them to be given the vote.

I don't believe they would even register. They couldn't be buttocked. More important things on there minds at that age.....sex!!

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mjr
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Re: 'Brexit means Brexit' ... ** The Brexit Thread **

Postby mjr » 13 Jan 2017, 12:13pm

Psamathe wrote:According to many reports, it was the older generations (pensioners) who tended to vote leave and younger generations who tended to vote remain.

The most detailed report I've read suggested that the key leave voter groups were "Affluent Eurosceptics", "Older working class" and "economically disadvantaged", which was a larger coalition than the key remain voter groups of "younger working class" and "middle-class liberals". The decisive thing was that Leave supporters were more likely to turn out and vote than Remain ones, which I feel is probably because the main Stronger In campaign and the various single-party ones were all fairly timid and wishy-washy.
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mr bajokoses
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Re: 'Brexit means Brexit' ... ** The Brexit Thread **

Postby mr bajokoses » 13 Jan 2017, 12:16pm

Psamathe wrote:Maybe, if you are going to suggest that it is due to immigrants flooding our health service ...


How leave won, in a nutshell.

Psamathe
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Re: 'Brexit means Brexit' ... ** The Brexit Thread **

Postby Psamathe » 13 Jan 2017, 12:21pm

mjr wrote:...The increase in A and E usage seems to be linked with the increase in waiting times for primary care appointments as the funding and contract chickens of recent years start to come home to roost, doctors retire and newly-qualified ones opt less for general practice. Norfolk's just been given a six-figure additional funding package to reduce primary care times and I'd bet similar things are happening elsewhere...

On TV (Newsnight ?) last night they had somebody (Dr and on some Dr representative organisation) who was saying that most of the (little) additional funding to the health service has been going into 2ndry care and primary care has received virtually no additional funding.

Plus, I guess it takes time to make-up the shortage of GPs. You can't just drag people in off the street and send them on a 2 month training course. It's a problem that we have been aware of for ages and ages yet our politicians have done nothing (significant) about. Were I a cynic then I'd suggest that having a failing GP service will make it easier for the public to accept switching provision to US private for-profit healthcare companies (if it means being able to get appointments). And recruiting GPs from e.g. EU will now be much harder after the UK's decision to leave the EU (a few weeks ago Birmingham trusts were reporting recruitment problems as their "supply" of nurses from the EU slows - can't find the report I read but a quick Google gave http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/brexit-staffing-crisis-hospitals-12180749).

The depressing thing is that we have been aware of the challenges for years so I regard this as a political failure. Our NHS is not the disaster our politicians seem to want to suggest it is. I believe it is actually pretty good but without funding and without being able to resolve it's challenges (e.g. being able to discharge patients requiring social care) they are "stuck between a rock and a hard place" and have to watch as our politicians deny problems and don't seem to even want to sort things out. We can afford more for the NHS, it's just our politicians would rather spend that money on other things (like tax cuts for the wealthy).

Ian

blackbike
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Re: 'Brexit means Brexit' ... ** The Brexit Thread **

Postby blackbike » 13 Jan 2017, 12:24pm

Boyd wrote::mrgreen:
blackbike wrote:Most 16 to 18 year olds are stupid and uneducated.

That's precisely why the Labour Party wants them to be given the vote.

I don't believe they would even register. They couldn't be buttocked. More important things on there minds at that age.....sex!!


And staring at the tiny screens of their beloved mobile phones.

16 to 18 year olds have an excuse for being stupid. They are callow, ignorant, inexperienced, uneducated and naïve simply because they are young. That's why we don't allow them to vote.

It is amusing that it was the Remain side who wanted these kids to have a vote in our referendum when they now tell us that the result was not valid because too many stupid, ill-informed and uneducated people voted Leave.

Boyd
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Re: 'Brexit means Brexit' ... ** The Brexit Thread **

Postby Boyd » 13 Jan 2017, 12:31pm

Psamathe wrote:
Boyd wrote:Why has there been a 20% increase in people using A and E This year? Nothing to do with EU immigrants? Who often don't speak english so the NHS has to supply an interpreter. I note no TV stations are suggesting that as possibility. Not politically correct?

Or maybe not factually correct. Maybe, if you are going to suggest that it is due to immigrants flooding our health service then you should provide some evidence/facts ?

All reports I've read are that the EU immigrants in the UK tend to be younger and thus healthier and thus make significantly lower demands on our health services. Whereas the British population is disproportionately aged and thus makes much higher demands of the health services.

And then you have to balance all those British people living in e.g. France or Spain who are making demands on e.g. the French or Spanish Health Services (rather than the UK health services) and demographically they are an older age group who tend to make higher demands on health services than younger people.

Ian

And where is your evidence to suggest they don't. Is it possible that these statistic would be either not collated (deliberately) or withheld for politically correct reasons?
Please feel free to explain the 20% increase. I am lost as to what else it could be unless you are suggesting that the UK population suddenly significantly aged....that appears to be your bizarre suggestion.
My experience of AandE has been of a large proportion of young foreigners particularly Romanians in AandE. I suppose if they bothered registering at a doctors surgery there wouldn't be as many of them. How much does an interpreter cost thlgaa Those uk citizens using health services in Spain and France are we paying for it? A French lady who went home told me they wouldn't accept her UK ehic card and made her pay €200 euros at A and E to see a doctor. Do France and Spain have the same comprehensive system we have? Are our UK citizens paying more towards there treatment then there counterparts in the UK. On minimum wage would foreigners pay for there prescriptions? I don't.
Last edited by Boyd on 13 Jan 2017, 12:41pm, edited 1 time in total.

Boyd
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Re: 'Brexit means Brexit' ... ** The Brexit Thread **

Postby Boyd » 13 Jan 2017, 12:39pm

If for instance you had a disabled child who could get better treatment in the UK than in say Romania would you take them to the UK? You would be lacking as a parent if you didn't.

blackbike
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Re: 'Brexit means Brexit' ... ** The Brexit Thread **

Postby blackbike » 13 Jan 2017, 12:44pm

Boyd wrote:If for instance you had a child who could get better treatment in the UK than in say Romania would you take them to the UK? You would be lacking as a parent if you didn't.


That's why we need border controls. Then the parent would not have the choice.

Psamathe
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Re: 'Brexit means Brexit' ... ** The Brexit Thread **

Postby Psamathe » 13 Jan 2017, 12:48pm

Boyd wrote:
Psamathe wrote:
Boyd wrote:Why has there been a 20% increase in people using A and E This year? Nothing to do with EU immigrants? Who often don't speak english so the NHS has to supply an interpreter. I note no TV stations are suggesting that as possibility. Not politically correct?

Or maybe not factually correct. Maybe, if you are going to suggest that it is due to immigrants flooding our health service then you should provide some evidence/facts ?

All reports I've read are that the EU immigrants in the UK tend to be younger and thus healthier and thus make significantly lower demands on our health services. Whereas the British population is disproportionately aged and thus makes much higher demands of the health services.

And then you have to balance all those British people living in e.g. France or Spain who are making demands on e.g. the French or Spanish Health Services (rather than the UK health services) and demographically they are an older age group who tend to make higher demands on health services than younger people.

Ian

And where is your evidence to suggest they don't.....

Actually the increase is from shape shifting aliens who have been coming to Earth (from light years away) to get their health care free on our NHS - and now I'll ask you to provide evidence that that is not the case.

You are asserting that an increase in A&E attendances is because of increased EU immigration (ignoring the fact that over 50% of our net immigration is from outside the EU) - the onus is on you to provide backing facts or evidence for your assertion, not for me to prove it isn't true.


Boyd wrote:A French lady who went home told me they wouldn't accept her UK ehic card and made her pay €200 euros at A and E to see a doctor.

You need to provide more details (and maybe understand a bit more about how the EHIC cards work. In France (at least when I lived there) you pay for your healthcare and then the state refunds you (it's pretty slick if on CPAM as you have a health CPAM card and the GP has a machine and it's all automatic). But in some EEA countries, visiting from the e.g. UK you still pay and reclaim the money from the UK government. I assume your French lady was seeking treatment in France (UK NHS would charge £ not €). And you cannot use your EHIC in the issuing country. And you can put yourself in a position where you are not covered by any healthcare system - was when I returned from living in France to living in the UK, for 6 months and had I needed serious healthcare then I would have had to pay even though I am a British citizen and was living in the UK. And when I returned I did need a minor operation and I had to wait 6 months and then before I even got to see a Consultant I had to go through a special interview with somebody in the hospital to present evidence and convince them I was fully UK resident.

Ian

Psamathe
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Re: 'Brexit means Brexit' ... ** The Brexit Thread **

Postby Psamathe » 13 Jan 2017, 12:53pm

Boyd wrote:If for instance you had a disabled child who could get better treatment in the UK than in say Romania would you take them to the UK? You would be lacking as a parent if you didn't.

Except you would have to become resident in the UK. It's not a matter of travelling over for a few days to get some treatment. EHICs only cover certain types of treatment - as I understand it it's a "patch you up to get you home for treatment in your country of residence".

If it were as easy as you suggest (and given the language constraints you are suggesting are costing so much) then all those people would be going to e.g. France for their treatment where you wont wait 3 weeks for a GP appointment and see your elective surgery repeatedly cancelled and slipped.

Boyd wrote:...I am lost as to what else it could be unless you are suggesting that the UK population suddenly significantly aged....that appears to be your bizarre suggestion....

Maybe read the rest of my post ? i.e.
Psamathe wrote:...
The depressing thing is that we have been aware of the challenges for years so I regard this as a political failure....



Ian

landsurfer
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Re: 'Brexit means Brexit' ... ** The Brexit Thread **

Postby landsurfer » 13 Jan 2017, 12:57pm

Just a thought folks.... how many 16 - 18 year olds do you actually interact with. Interact with .. not "know".
I employ 6 of them .... Mummy or daddy brings them to work and picks them up, makes their packed lunch and dresses them, they are incredibly immature.
One first year apprentice left because mummy got a job further from home and he would had to have caught the bus to work .....
They think work is a social occasion and it's all right to be constantly playing with their phones ... constantly .....
And you would let them VOTE !!!!!

Probably when you and I where 18 we where adults .... that has changed .. for the worse.
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