** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

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mercalia
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mercalia » 10 Feb 2019, 6:17pm

roubaixtuesday wrote:
mercalia wrote:Why the Backstop is unfair and the hard supporters of brexit are right in resisting it

Unlike the GFA where every one stood to gain, the end of violence, the backstop is different.

The UK derives few benefits, other than the GFA, from remaining in the backstop and in fact it damages the UKs long term interests and life outside the EU.

On the other hand it meets the requirements of the EU perfectly - meeting the demands of the GFA and also protecting the single market dogma

Thus any alternative to the backstop has to be ATLEAST as good ie perfect in the EU's view It has no incentive to accept any soln worse than it

The EU may thus be inclined to set an impossibly high bar to agree to end it - that is the growing realisation in the supporters of brexit camps? A valid worry.

What we need is a soln that is in the interests of all partys to remove asap? The "Backstop" is not that. ( Goodness knows why Mrs May agreed to it)


Complete nonsense.

The backstop was a huge concession from the EU.

It gives far *better* terms than any long term agreement will.


:roll:

pete75
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby pete75 » 10 Feb 2019, 6:20pm

mercalia wrote:
pete75 wrote:
mercalia wrote:
beside the point. Just trying to get clear about the rights and wrongs of the situation and to make sense of the apparant intransigence of the EU since they claim to be reasonable whereas we are just causing trouble?


Of course it isn't beside the point- it's exactly the point. You claim the backstop is damaging to Britain's long term interest when Brexit is far more damaging.
Any problems, troubles etc that come from Brexit are entirely down to the UK leaving. No leaving, no problems.


I wasnt saying any thing about the pros and cons of Brexit but about the issues assuming Brexit. An important distinction


You may think you were but you weren't.

mercalia
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mercalia » 10 Feb 2019, 6:21pm

Cunobelin wrote:
PDQ Mobile wrote:Switzerland, the much vaunted example of an economy doing well outside of the EU, has around 40 years of negotiations behind it covering a huge number of specific areas.
To imagine we could achieve a similar position in less than half or even a whole decade is simply impossible.
I posted this many many moons ago, before the vote, and it was discounted by many "leavers" on here.



You have 47 days, 5 hours, 45 minutes and 40 seconds....


Can we have a count down ticker like the USA do at the New Year?

roubaixtuesday
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby roubaixtuesday » 10 Feb 2019, 6:26pm

mercalia wrote:
:roll:


The usual well informed, cogent discussion.

PH
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby PH » 10 Feb 2019, 6:48pm

mercalia wrote:
PH wrote:
mercalia wrote:beside the point. Just trying to get clear about the rights and wrongs of the situation and to make sense of the apparant intransigence of the EU since they claim to be reasonable whereas we are just causing trouble?

In real practical terms what is it you think the EU can offer? An open border between two customs regimes isn't possible, is it? Does it exist anywhere else?


not dealing with that issue just the unbalanced nature of the backstop and total puzzlement why Mrs may agreed to it. She built her deal on sand:

Sorry, but that isn't an answer. If you don't have the backstop, what else is there? One of the only amendments passed in the last round of voting called for an alternative, but no one is saying what that could be.
In terms of the GFA it would have been like demanding that the IRA disarm first.

That simply isn't accurate, both decommissioning and demilitarisation were a part of the GFA, with a timescale and a defined outcome. The latter could have been halted and reversed at any time if the paramilitaries broke the former.

mercalia
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mercalia » 10 Feb 2019, 7:38pm

pete75 wrote:
mercalia wrote:
pete75 wrote:
Of course it isn't beside the point- it's exactly the point. You claim the backstop is damaging to Britain's long term interest when Brexit is far more damaging.
Any problems, troubles etc that come from Brexit are entirely down to the UK leaving. No leaving, no problems.


I wasnt saying any thing about the pros and cons of Brexit but about the issues assuming Brexit. An important distinction


You may think you were but you weren't.


what arrogance

mercalia
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mercalia » 10 Feb 2019, 7:39pm

PH wrote:
mercalia wrote:
PH wrote:In real practical terms what is it you think the EU can offer? An open border between two customs regimes isn't possible, is it? Does it exist anywhere else?


not dealing with that issue just the unbalanced nature of the backstop and total puzzlement why Mrs may agreed to it. She built her deal on sand:

Sorry, but that isn't an answer. If you don't have the backstop, what else is there? One of the only amendments passed in the last round of voting called for an alternative, but no one is saying what that could be.
In terms of the GFA it would have been like demanding that the IRA disarm first.

That simply isn't accurate, both decommissioning and demilitarisation were a part of the GFA, with a timescale and a defined outcome. The latter could have been halted and reversed at any time if the paramilitaries broke the former.


read

mercalia
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mercalia » 10 Feb 2019, 7:40pm

roubaixtuesday wrote:
mercalia wrote:
:roll:


The usual well informed, cogent discussion.



well takes one to know one

PH
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby PH » 10 Feb 2019, 8:42pm

mercalia wrote:
PH wrote:
mercalia wrote:
not dealing with that issue just the unbalanced nature of the backstop and total puzzlement why Mrs may agreed to it. She built her deal on sand:

Sorry, but that isn't an answer. If you don't have the backstop, what else is there? One of the only amendments passed in the last round of voting called for an alternative, but no one is saying what that could be.
In terms of the GFA it would have been like demanding that the IRA disarm first.

That simply isn't accurate, both decommissioning and demilitarisation were a part of the GFA, with a timescale and a defined outcome. The latter could have been halted and reversed at any time if the paramilitaries broke the former.


read

A disappointingly poor answer and how rude to suggest I didn't read, the thing that needed to happen FIRST was agreement on the timescale and outcome, without it there would have been no GFA. Same as with any Brexit negotiations. Your repeated comparison with the GFA doesn't stand up to any scrutiny, you keep saying no backstop, I'll keep asking what instead, if you have an answer to that why not offer it? The backstop with the GFA was that they could return to the same situation as prior to the negotiations, the need for an agreed backstop in the WA is because there is no return.

pete75
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby pete75 » 10 Feb 2019, 9:40pm

mercalia wrote:
pete75 wrote:
mercalia wrote:
I wasnt saying any thing about the pros and cons of Brexit but about the issues assuming Brexit. An important distinction


You may think you were but you weren't.


what arrogance


Merely a statement of fact.

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Cunobelin
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Cunobelin » 10 Feb 2019, 9:58pm

mercalia wrote:
Cunobelin wrote:
PDQ Mobile wrote:Switzerland, the much vaunted example of an economy doing well outside of the EU, has around 40 years of negotiations behind it covering a huge number of specific areas.
To imagine we could achieve a similar position in less than half or even a whole decade is simply impossible.
I posted this many many moons ago, before the vote, and it was discounted by many "leavers" on here.



You have 47 days, 5 hours, 45 minutes and 40 seconds....


Can we have a count down ticker like the USA do at the New Year?


There are several:

https://interactive.news.sky.com/2017/brexit-countdown/

http://daystobrexit.co.uk

https://www.tickcounter.com/countdown/4 ... -to-brexit



This one worries me though.....

http://www.brexit-countdown.uk

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Cunobelin
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Cunobelin » 10 Feb 2019, 10:00pm



As good as any I have seen

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mjr
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mjr » 10 Feb 2019, 10:40pm

mercalia wrote:
PH wrote:
mercalia wrote:beside the point. Just trying to get clear about the rights and wrongs of the situation and to make sense of the apparant intransigence of the EU since they claim to be reasonable whereas we are just causing trouble?

In real practical terms what is it you think the EU can offer? An open border between two customs regimes isn't possible, is it? Does it exist anywhere else?


not dealing with that issue just the unbalanced nature of the backstop and total puzzlement why Mrs may agreed to it. She built her deal on sand: In terms of the GFA it would have been like demanding that the IRA disarm first.

Not "agreed to" but "proposed" its current form! https://www.dw.com/en/brexit-theresa-ma ... a-45896918

All this "wah wah wah mean EU" narrative ignores the reality that the current backstop is a consequence of mad May's red lines combining with the GFA and her dependence on the DUP.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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mjr
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mjr » 10 Feb 2019, 10:47pm

Anyway, in today's news, Theresa Delay is trying to postpone this week's vote to the end of the month https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/world/t ... vorce-deal

Why the heck does she think she will do anything useful in the next two weeks when she hasn't been able to do it in the last two months or the last two years? I hope MPs reject this attempt to run down the clock even further!
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.

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Cunobelin
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Cunobelin » 11 Feb 2019, 6:45am

AN interesting article in the New York Times about Which areas would be hit most by a NO Deal Brexit and why



Image

I suspect though it will simply be ignored and dismissed with the "Project Fear" method of avoiding disscussion