** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

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Oldjohnw
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Oldjohnw » 11 Feb 2019, 8:33am

From today's Guardian - and elsewhere:

The defence secretary, Gavin Williamson, will say in a speech today that Brexit represents an opportunity for Britain to boost its global military standing in response to the threats posed by Russia and China. He will argue that a post-Brexit UK should redefine its role as a global power prepared to intervene against countries that “flout international law”, backed up by new military technologies and capabilities.


So now we know it was really all about Rule Britannia and Empire
John

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mr bajokoses
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mr bajokoses » 11 Feb 2019, 8:36am

Oldjohnw wrote:From today's Guardian - and elsewhere:

The defence secretary, Gavin Williamson, will say in a speech today that Brexit represents an opportunity for Britain to boost its global military standing in response to the threats posed by Russia and China. He will argue that a post-Brexit UK should redefine its role as a global power prepared to intervene against countries that “flout international law”, backed up by new military technologies and capabilities.


So now we know it was really all about Rule Britannia and Empire


Obviously in the bizarre version of the world inhabited by Gavin Williamson, it was the EU that was stopping us from doing that as a member of the EU. :cry:

roubaixtuesday
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby roubaixtuesday » 11 Feb 2019, 8:55am

Oldjohnw wrote:From today's Guardian - and elsewhere:

The defence secretary, Gavin Williamson, will say in a speech today that Brexit represents an opportunity for Britain to boost its global military standing in response to the threats posed by Russia and China. He will argue that a post-Brexit UK should redefine its role as a global power prepared to intervene against countries that “flout international law”, backed up by new military technologies and capabilities.


So now we know it was really all about Rule Britannia and Empire


First of all, this has absolutely ****** all to do with Brexit other than a common jingoistic rhetoric - there's nothing in EU membership that would stop us from doing this anyway.

Secondly what on earth does he think he's on about? Brexit is an opportunity to fight more remote wars?? Against Russia and China or their proxies???

The level of delusion and unreality is positively terrifying.

Oldjohnw
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Oldjohnw » 11 Feb 2019, 8:56am

The clown and his clown colleagues is completely missing that fact that Russia wants Brexit because it is the EU which is the buffer against Russian ambitions.
John

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kwackers
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby kwackers » 11 Feb 2019, 9:03am

Oldjohnw wrote:The clown and his clown colleagues is completely missing that fact that Russia wants Brexit because it is the EU which is the buffer against Russian ambitions.

Not to mention the cost, where does that money come from? Military technology in the 21st century is eye wateringly expensive and out competing Russia and China laughable.

Gone are the days when arming every man with a rifle and bayonet was the epitome of warfare technology.
(Bit like us telling other countries what deals we want, brexit truly is a home for the delusional.)

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Audax67
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Audax67 » 11 Feb 2019, 10:38am

kwackers wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:The clown and his clown colleagues is completely missing that fact that Russia wants Brexit because it is the EU which is the buffer against Russian ambitions.

Not to mention the cost, where does that money come from? Military technology in the 21st century is eye wateringly expensive and out competing Russia and China laughable.

Gone are the days when arming every man with a rifle and bayonet was the epitome of warfare technology.
(Bit like us telling other countries what deals we want, brexit truly is a home for the delusional.)



The EU has been chipped at by the US and Russia for at least the last 30 years. When the USSR broke up it was greatly to the US's advantage that the USSR's buffer states came under the influence of EU liberal democracy, while at the same time their impoverished state meant that they were a charge on the whole EU's prosperity. In more recent years, wars in Africa and the Middle East have created waves of refugees whose arrival has bolstered the populists like Orbán, Salvini and the Le Pens' crowd, and their extremism has become a threat to EU unity. Russia has a direct hand in Syria at least, and Europe-is-our-worst-enemy-Tяump's troop reductions play straight into their hands.

In addition, the UK has been whining about the EU since Maggie, and Rupert Murdoch's avowed intent has always been to hasten the EU's break-up by any means possible.

Well, it's happening. Sad times.
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mjr
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mjr » 11 Feb 2019, 11:24am

roubaixtuesday wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:From today's Guardian - and elsewhere:

The defence secretary, Gavin Williamson, will say in a speech today that Brexit represents an opportunity for Britain to boost its global military standing in response to the threats posed by Russia and China. He will argue that a post-Brexit UK should redefine its role as a global power prepared to intervene against countries that “flout international law”, backed up by new military technologies and capabilities.


So now we know it was really all about Rule Britannia and Empire


First of all, this has absolutely ****** all to do with Brexit other than a common jingoistic rhetoric - there's nothing in EU membership that would stop us from doing this anyway.

Even worse, one part of the European Union is the defence and foreign policy cooperation. We've been hearing in the news this morning about how losing access to the police and justice cooperation part of the union (as it looks like we will) is going to make policing slower and more expensive because we'll be going back to "clunky" 1950s protocols usually reserved these days for countries that have no relationship. I expect something similar applies to defence but the current military are unlikely to speak out - so of course, a defence minister is making a play for more defence spending in next month's budget, because it's probably going to be much more expensive simply to maintain the current military activities once we're not cooperating with our neighbours.

Secondly what on earth does he think he's on about? Brexit is an opportunity to fight more remote wars?? Against Russia and China or their proxies???

The level of delusion and unreality is positively terrifying.

I doubt he believes it himself, but it's a way to stir up the jingoist xenophobes to support his money-grab ploy.
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PDQ Mobile
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby PDQ Mobile » 11 Feb 2019, 11:46am

Oldjohnw wrote:From today's Guardian - and elsewhere:

The defence secretary, Gavin Williamson, will say in a speech today that Brexit represents an opportunity for Britain to boost its global military standing in response to the threats posed by Russia and China. He will argue that a post-Brexit UK should redefine its role as a global power prepared to intervene against countries that “flout international law”, backed up by new military technologies and capabilities.


So now we know it was really all about Rule Britannia and Empire


I read it as he wants to export more arms to regimes that the EU might consider dubious.

Following in the footfall of Foxy, no doubt.

Oldjohnw
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Oldjohnw » 11 Feb 2019, 1:12pm

And Boris just today says he wants to close down the DFID and direct the money to, among other places, the military.

You have to wonder if this right wing thing is coordinated. In other words, a plot. And I am not given to conspiracy theories.
John

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby PDQ Mobile » 11 Feb 2019, 1:33pm

Oldjohnw wrote:And Boris just today says he wants to close down the DFID and direct the money to, among other places, the military.

You have to wonder if this right wing thing is coordinated. In other words, a plot. And I am not given to conspiracy theories.


In preparation for "helping out" in Venezula perhaps?
The biggest oil and gas reserves in the world just happen to be there.
Sudan on the other hand.....

Oldjohnw
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Oldjohnw » 11 Feb 2019, 1:51pm

These right wingers want to shrink the state yet increase the military, all the while reducing taxes.
John

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mr bajokoses
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mr bajokoses » 11 Feb 2019, 2:25pm

They want a 'global Britain', but to reduce foreign aid.

I have long since given up expecting any of them to make any sense. All they are doing is trying to appease the baying mob.

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bovlomov
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby bovlomov » 11 Feb 2019, 2:35pm

mr bajokoses wrote:They want a 'global Britain', but to reduce foreign aid.

I have long since given up expecting any of them to make any sense. All they are doing is trying to appease the baying mob.

I'm not sure how large this baying mob is. I know there are people whose genuine concerns have been hijacked, and I know there are some people who are plain ignorant and nasty - but I wonder whether the baying mob is largely the invention of powerful interests that would like us to believe that anything less than [insert what the powerful people want] will result in civil war.

I can only speak for myself, but I have absolutely no sense of what the public mood is about Brexit. How would I? All I see are opinions on social media and highly selective vox pops. They can't be representative.

mr bajokoses
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mr bajokoses » 11 Feb 2019, 2:49pm

bovlomov wrote:I wonder whether the baying mob is largely the invention of powerful interests that would like us to believe that anything less than [insert what the powerful people want] will result in civil war.

I can only speak for myself, but I have absolutely no sense of what the public mood is about Brexit. How would I? All I see are opinions on social media and highly selective vox pops. They can't be representative.


Could well be, and those politicians with vested interests have done their utmost to keep their mob baying.

It is very difficult to judge the public mood, but there are clues. Opinion polls showing 40%+ support for the Tories, those dreadful vox-pops, cheering in the Question Time audience for the most jingoistic and poorly thought-out drivel. Things I have overheard include wishing for a humanitarian disaster (of unspecified type) for the migrants in the English Channel, and having a good laugh about the Italian deputy PM's support for the gilet-jaunes. Plenty of anti-Irish sentiment around too, including on this forum.

Maybe we have the government, and the opposition, we deserve.

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bovlomov
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby bovlomov » 11 Feb 2019, 3:01pm

mr bajokoses wrote:It is very difficult to judge the public mood, but there are clues. Opinion polls showing 40%+ support for the Tories, those dreadful vox-pops, cheering in the Question Time audience for the most jingoistic and poorly thought-out drivel. Things I have overheard include wishing for a humanitarian disaster (of unspecified type) for the migrants in the English Channel, and having a good laugh about the Italian deputy PM's support for the gilet-jaunes. Plenty of anti-Irish sentiment around too, including on this forum.

I've seen all that too. I'm hoping it's a self-selecting and unusually vocal minority. Certainly QT audiences (or panels, for that matter) aren't representative. The audience is selected, seemingly, exactly for high drivel content.

I'm no fan of Corbyn, but he has been subjected to much unfair media mockery. He was, received wisdom had it, a liability, and was expected to be trounced at the last general election. It didn't happen, presumably because not everyone is influenced by media campaigns. Perhaps not everyone is easily influenced, even now.