** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

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Psamathe
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Re: 'Brexit means Brexit' ... ** The Brexit Thread **

Postby Psamathe » 14 Jan 2017, 10:48am

Boyd wrote:
blackbike wrote:News from Germany.

No jail time for three men who tried to burn down a synagogue.

http://www.jpost.com/Diaspora/German-co ... ael-478330

Can I suggest you create a new topic unless you are suggesting that an attempting to burn down a synagogue in Germany was a product of Brexit? If so please expand.

I think we don't need new topics for every slightly different aspect to every current affairs thread. The forum at times can become swamped with too many related current affairs threads and some members find it overwhelms the cycling threads! Discussions on this (too many current affairs threads) seem to come to a consensus to not be starting a new thread for every slight variant of such discussions.

Ian

reohn2
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Re: 'Brexit means Brexit' ... ** The Brexit Thread **

Postby reohn2 » 14 Jan 2017, 10:55am

http://www.jpost.com/Diaspora/German-co ... ael-478330

Incredible! :?

Though what it has to do with this thread is anyone's guess.
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blackbike
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Re: 'Brexit means Brexit' ... ** The Brexit Thread **

Postby blackbike » 14 Jan 2017, 11:20am

Boyd wrote:
blackbike wrote:News from Germany.

No jail time for three men who tried to burn down a synagogue.

http://www.jpost.com/Diaspora/German-co ... ael-478330

Can I suggest you create a new topic unless you are suggesting that an attempting to burn down a synagogue in Germany was a product of Brexit? If so please expand.


Suggest anything you like. No need to ask me for permission.

I think it is very important to keep a close watch on what is happening in the EU. We know what has happened there in the recent past and we are still members, and there are many Brits who want us to remain so.

When a nation makes close alliances with other countries, and pools its human rights and other important areas of legislation with them, it should be vigilant and be ready to end those alliances if things get a bit dodgy.

We have recently heard about the death in prison of a man who was jailed for leaving a bacon sandwich outside a mosque. He didn't try to burn it down with Molotov cocktails. Would have been punished at all in Germany?

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/ma ... 29726.html

pwa
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Re: 'Brexit means Brexit' ... ** The Brexit Thread **

Postby pwa » 14 Jan 2017, 11:30am

reohn2 wrote:http://www.jpost.com/Diaspora/German-court-calls-synagogue-torching-an-act-to-criticize-Israel-478330

Incredible! :?

Though what it has to do with this thread is anyone's guess.


Nothing to do with Brexit, but yes, appalling and obviously antisemitic. If it were simply a political protest they would have targeted the Israeli Embassy, not a synagogue. I myself have a deep dislike of Israel's treatment of the Palestinians over the decades, but I have Jewish friends and it does not affect my relations with them. If I wanted to protest about Israeli government policy I would target the Israeli government, not my Jewish friends. We need to protect our Jewish citizens against this mistargeted reaction to Israeli government policy.

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bovlomov
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Re: 'Brexit means Brexit' ... ** The Brexit Thread **

Postby bovlomov » 14 Jan 2017, 11:42am

blackbike wrote:We have recently heard about the death in prison of a man who was jailed for leaving a bacon sandwich outside a mosque. He didn't try to burn it down with Molotov cocktails. Would have been punished at all in Germany?

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/ma ... 29726.html

You are making a reasonable point but, yet again, things are not quite as you say.

The headline of the linked article has done its job, because that's what some people will be quoting on internet forums. But the text says
Crehan, Alison Bennett, 46, and Mark Bennett, 48, and Angelina Swales, 31, admitted hurling racial abuse at a member of the mosque and leaving a St George’s flag tied to a fence nearby.

Images posted on Facebook showed bacon sandwiches left outside the place of worship.

Psamathe
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Re: 'Brexit means Brexit' ... ** The Brexit Thread **

Postby Psamathe » 14 Jan 2017, 12:03pm

I think the incidence of race hate crimes is relevant given the significant (and fairly sudden) increase in such crimes and attacks/abuse we saw in the UK following the EU Referendum. My own thoughts are that elements of the Leave campaign used race and fear as foreigners to appeal to their potential voters and the result is that many of those people felt their attitudes more "mainstream" and less isolated and some of the more extreme then felt more confident to express their attitudes with attacks and abuse. A very obvious example contributing to this was Farage's poster showing queues of refugees - in no way related to the UK/EU but it pandered to his voters and empowered those with racist attitudes.

NOTE: I am NOT accusing Leave voters of being racist but rather there are undoubtedly some who do hold such attitudes (I'm not suggesting any particular numbers or %ages and I'm sure that there are also racist Remain supporters - just that those racist Remain supporters did not have their viewpoint re-enforced through the referendum campaigns as they probably rejected things like Farage's poster as they did not agree with their existing views on the EU.

Other EU countries are facing similar politicians and attitudes so I find it interesting (and worrying) to see how such things are developing in other (EU) countries (seemed to be a similar effect reported in the US through Trump's campaigning).

Ian

pwa
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Re: 'Brexit means Brexit' ... ** The Brexit Thread **

Postby pwa » 14 Jan 2017, 12:20pm

Psamathe wrote:I think the incidence of race hate crimes is relevant given the significant (and fairly sudden) increase in such crimes and attacks/abuse we saw in the UK following the EU Referendum. My own thoughts are that elements of the Leave campaign used race and fear as foreigners to appeal to their potential voters and the result is that many of those people felt their attitudes more "mainstream" and less isolated and some of the more extreme then felt more confident to express their attitudes with attacks and abuse. A very obvious example contributing to this was Farage's poster showing queues of refugees - in no way related to the UK/EU but it pandered to his voters and empowered those with racist attitudes.

NOTE: I am NOT accusing Leave voters of being racist but rather there are undoubtedly some who do hold such attitudes (I'm not suggesting any particular numbers or %ages and I'm sure that there are also racist Remain supporters - just that those racist Remain supporters did not have their viewpoint re-enforced through the referendum campaigns as they probably rejected things like Farage's poster as they did not agree with their existing views on the EU.

Other EU countries are facing similar politicians and attitudes so I find it interesting (and worrying) to see how such things are developing in other (EU) countries (seemed to be a similar effect reported in the US through Trump's campaigning).

Ian


As a Leave supporter I welcome your analysis, and agree with it. And I think that, looking forward, we need to work as a society to build cohesion and get away from any notion that Brexit is about reversing migration or ethnic cleansing.

mercalia
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Re: 'Brexit means Brexit' ... ** The Brexit Thread **

Postby mercalia » 14 Jan 2017, 12:36pm


Psamathe
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Re: 'Brexit means Brexit' ... ** The Brexit Thread **

Postby Psamathe » 14 Jan 2017, 12:46pm

pwa wrote:... And I think that, looking forward, we need to work as a society to build cohesion and get away from any notion that Brexit is about reversing migration or ethnic cleansing.

I think the trouble is that many Leave campaigning politicians have promised us this "Land of Milk and Honey" cut off from the EU and it looks increasingly unlikely that it will happen as promised. Those politicians want to split with the EU for ideological reasons and will need somebody/something to blame when their promises do not "come to pass". It needs to be a simple soundbite pandering to existing prejudices (i.e. so believed without much questioning) and blaming Section 7.5.13.c for constraining the maximum treatment frequency of oilseed rape under ... and section 97.32.13.f for ... wont cut it (people will have lost interest and belief long before) but blaming "the EU immigrants" solves so many problems: they "take our jobs" (lets overlook the high levels of employment in the UK), "they force us to be low paid" (even though the Government set minimum pay rates), "they take our houses", "flood our A&E" (seen that even on this forum), "they clog up our GP appointments", etc., etc.. Three short words and everything wrong is blamed on something else outside the control of our politicians (and it does not seem to matter too much that the facts and data don't support that blame).

And using such scapegoats further empowers those who may potentially carry out race hate/abuse attacks.

Ian

Psamathe
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Re: 'Brexit means Brexit' ... ** The Brexit Thread **

Postby Psamathe » 14 Jan 2017, 12:54pm

mercalia wrote:well well well seems like the EU backing off from kicking the UK in the ****?
and want a special relationship with the city of london financial centre

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/jan/13/eu-negotiator-wants-special-deal-over-access-to-city-post-brexit?utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=GU+Today+main+NEW+H+categories&utm_term=208418&subid=7646217&CMP=EMCNEWEML6619I2

I think a lot depends on how you read the very very limited information.

So little information that I don't think one can make any real interpretation. But an alternative to the "backing off from kicking the UK ..." would be that they are doing nothing more than protecting their own interests. It might mean nothing more than a transitional arrangement to allow other EU member states to take over from the City in an orderly and stable manner. Will the EU in the longer term accept being so dependent of a financial centre outside the EU that it cannot regulate or control ? Paris and Frankfurt have been keen to take over from the City as financial centres so I can't see them stopping such attempts when they would have so many arguments to bring such business within the EU control.

But then a lot must depends on what other related agreements happen. Were we to adopt the Norway arrangements then there would be no problems with the City remaining "as is". If we make a complete split, rejecting any EU control over anything, anywhere, ever ... then I can see the EU being tougher over the role of the City within the EU.

I would not argue that my alternative interpretation is correct, just another possibility based on the limited information (I've seen).

Ian

blackbike
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Re: 'Brexit means Brexit' ... ** The Brexit Thread **

Postby blackbike » 14 Jan 2017, 6:41pm

pwa wrote:

As a Leave supporter I welcome your analysis, and agree with it. And I think that, looking forward, we need to work as a society to build cohesion and get away from any notion that Brexit is about reversing migration or ethnic cleansing.


Our right to tell non-British people to leave the UK already exists for people who come from countries which make up 93% of the world's population.

And we've never heard much complaint about that from pro-EU types. They've never, as a group, called for freedom of movement of everyone in the world. They seem quite happy with the status quo, with their enthusiasm for free movement into the UK confined to the 6% percent of mainly white people who live in non-UK EU countries.

When we leave the EU we will be able, if we so choose, to treat EU nationals in exactly the same way we currently treat the 93%. That would increase fairness and end our effectively racially discriminatory EU-based immigration system which means we accept lots of people, nearly all white, from the EU's small population but don't accept proportionate numbers from the relatively huge number of mainly non-white people from the rest of the world.

It is pro-EU people who need to examine their support for the discriminatory immigration system operated by the EU itself, and which it enforces on member nations.

Leave voters need no lectures on the ethics of immigration or anything else from people who support a bloc of nations which operates strict immigration and trade restrictions with the rest of the world.

The days when certain people could hope to stifle opposition to their views on the EU by implying that such views were based on racism, xenophobia or the desire for a racially pure country are now over. That cynical, desperate tactic failed miserably and probably helped boost the Leave vote by causing many people to react angrily to it, and to question why, if the EU is so wonderful, pro-EU people need to stoop to such an impolite and amateurish approach.

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bovlomov
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Re: 'Brexit means Brexit' ... ** The Brexit Thread **

Postby bovlomov » 14 Jan 2017, 7:38pm

blackbike wrote:And we've never heard much complaint about that from pro-EU types. They've never, as a group, called for freedom of movement of everyone in the world. They seem quite happy with the status quo, with their enthusiasm for free movement into the UK confined to the 6% percent of mainly white people who live in non-UK EU countries.

When we leave the EU we will be able, if we so choose, to treat EU nationals in exactly the same way we currently treat the 93%. That would increase fairness and end our effectively racially discriminatory EU-based immigration system which means we accept lots of people, nearly all white, from the EU's small population but don't accept proportionate numbers from the relatively huge number of mainly non-white people from the rest of the world.

I'll point out for the severalth time, that real people don't conform to your stereotypes.

The problem for many isn't what happens for EU residents settling here post referendum - it is the change in status for people who already live and work here; are part of communities and have raised children. Now, before you say that they should have known the rules - it appears that the crucial change happened in 2015, without any publicity, and that little trick is subject to challenge by the EU, as an "infringement of procedure".

So perhaps these EU immigrants are losing their rights because the UK has broken EU rules: i.e. while still a member. That should put it all in a rather different light for you - even if you think there's nothing wrong with other aspects of the plan.

blackbike
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Re: 'Brexit means Brexit' ... ** The Brexit Thread **

Postby blackbike » 14 Jan 2017, 9:59pm

bovlomov wrote:
blackbike wrote:And we've never heard much complaint about that from pro-EU types. They've never, as a group, called for freedom of movement of everyone in the world. They seem quite happy with the status quo, with their enthusiasm for free movement into the UK confined to the 6% percent of mainly white people who live in non-UK EU countries.

When we leave the EU we will be able, if we so choose, to treat EU nationals in exactly the same way we currently treat the 93%. That would increase fairness and end our effectively racially discriminatory EU-based immigration system which means we accept lots of people, nearly all white, from the EU's small population but don't accept proportionate numbers from the relatively huge number of mainly non-white people from the rest of the world.

I'll point out for the severalth time, that real people don't conform to your stereotypes.

The problem for many isn't what happens for EU residents settling here post referendum - it is the change in status for people who already live and work here; are part of communities and have raised children. Now, before you say that they should have known the rules - it appears that the crucial change happened in 2015, without any publicity, and that little trick is subject to challenge by the EU, as an "infringement of procedure".

So perhaps these EU immigrants are losing their rights because the UK has broken EU rules: i.e. while still a member. That should put it all in a rather different light for you - even if you think there's nothing wrong with other aspects of the plan.


Firstly , I don't expect people to conform to my stereotypes. If, on our exit from the EU, EU foreigners who live here are required to leave by act of parliament, that is not anything to with my stereotypes or anyone else's. It is merely our democratic decision, and a decision which merely brings EU foreigners into line with how we already treat foreigners from other countries. I don't stereotype. I like to treat all foreigners in the same way, not to favour those from EU countries. That is what pro-EU people do, and it's discriminatory.

Secondly, I don't see any problems with the 'change of status' for any foreigner who lives in the UK at the moment. Their right to live and work here is just a right which currently exists and can be withdrawn at any time should our parliament to see fit to do so.

That should please all the Remainers who tell us our parliament should always be consulted and its will implemented,

Psamathe
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Re: 'Brexit means Brexit' ... ** The Brexit Thread **

Postby Psamathe » 14 Jan 2017, 10:20pm

blackbike wrote:... If, on our exit from the EU, EU foreigners who live here are required to leave by act of parliament, that is not anything to with my stereotypes or anyone else's. It is merely our democratic decision....

(Not responding to your post directly in the more general content) but on this being a democratic decision I hope you will be proven right because at the moment is looks like it will be anything but democratic. Ms May (our appointed leader) is fighting through appeal courts to exclude our democratically elected Parliament from the decisions about our leaving the EU. She is still maintaining the Parliament will not be given any say in the acceptance of the final agreement - so as at the moment it is looking totally undemocratic.

And whilst I fully agree the EU referendum vote for the UK to leave the EU was democratic, that vote did not say anything about EU citizens already in the UK being allowed to remain here or being forced to leave so nothing democratic on that aspect to our leaving should that be dicided by the "Executive" (basically Ms May and her 3 Blind Mice).

Ian

blackbike
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Re: 'Brexit means Brexit' ... ** The Brexit Thread **

Postby blackbike » 14 Jan 2017, 10:40pm

Psamathe wrote:
blackbike wrote:... If, on our exit from the EU, EU foreigners who live here are required to leave by act of parliament, that is not anything to with my stereotypes or anyone else's. It is merely our democratic decision....

(Not responding to your post directly in the more general content) but on this being a democratic decision I hope you will be proven right because at the moment is looks like it will be anything but democratic. Ms May (our appointed leader) is fighting through appeal courts to exclude our democratically elected Parliament from the decisions about our leaving the EU. She is still maintaining the Parliament will not be given any say in the acceptance of the final agreement - so as at the moment it is looking totally undemocratic.

And whilst I fully agree the EU referendum vote for the UK to leave the EU was democratic, that vote did not say anything about EU citizens already in the UK being allowed to remain here or being forced to leave so nothing democratic on that aspect to our leaving should that be dicided by the "Executive" (basically Ms May and her 3 Blind Mice).

Ian


Clutching at straws.

We were asked quite clearly if we wanted to leave the EU or not. And we do want to leave.

The details are for our elected representatives to decide. If they choose to deport EU foreigners who are already here I will respect that. If they choose to let them stay I'll respect that too.

Remainers have a great respect for what our parliament decides so I know they will respect its decision, whatever that is.

What a wonderful turnaround we've seen in the last year.