** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

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Boyd
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Re: 'Brexit means Brexit' ... ** The Brexit Thread **

Postby Boyd » 15 Jan 2017, 10:51am

PDQ Mobile wrote:
We are all Europeans working together for the betterment of OUR Continent and our fellow citizens.

Divide and rule. Sadly now true .

I am glad you feel you have gained out of the EU, those who voted against clearly don't. Have you given that some consideration?

Psamathe
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Re: 'Brexit means Brexit' ... ** The Brexit Thread **

Postby Psamathe » 15 Jan 2017, 10:55am

Boyd wrote:
Psamathe wrote:
Boyd wrote:Can I suggest you create a new topic unless you are suggesting that an attempting to burn down a synagogue in Germany was a product of Brexit? If so please expand.

I think we don't need new topics for every slightly different aspect to every current affairs thread. The forum at times can become swamped with too many related current affairs threads and some members find it overwhelms the cycling threads! Discussions on this (too many current affairs threads) seem to come to a consensus to not be starting a new thread for every slight variant of such discussions.

Ian
"slightly different aspect" he is linking brexit with the burning down of synagogues in Germany. Feel point the link.

As a relatively new member you have probably missed a lot of the discussion about current affairs threads and how at times they have completely swamped the forum. There has been loads of discussion as many here have no interest and prefer the forum to be focused on cycling (reasonable). Thus we try and keep the number of threads about current affairs down and different issues get encompassed into existing threads through the topic drifting. Sometimes a different aspect promote discussion, sometimes not. But the main thing those who do participate in the current affairs discussions try to do is to keep the number of different current affairs threads down so that the forum remains a forum to discuss cycling.

(Many members access the forum through the "New Posts" facility and at times that has been totally dominated by current affairs threads, often many based on similar or related subjects).

Ian

Boyd
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Re: 'Brexit means Brexit' ... ** The Brexit Thread **

Postby Boyd » 15 Jan 2017, 11:00am

blackbike wrote:
Boyd wrote:
blackbike wrote:News from Germany.

No jail time for three men who tried to burn down a synagogue.

http://www.jpost.com/Diaspora/German-co ... ael-478330

Can I suggest you create a new topic unless you are suggesting that an attempting to burn down a synagogue in Germany was a product of Brexit? If so please expand.


Suggest anything you like. No need to ask me for permission.

I think it is very important to keep a close watch on what is happening in the EU. We know what has happened there in the recent past and we are still members, and there are many Brits who want us to remain so.

When a nation makes close alliances with other countries, and pools its human rights and other important areas of legislation with them, it should be vigilant and be ready to end those alliances if things get a bit dodgy.

We have recently heard about the death in prison of a man who was jailed for leaving a bacon sandwich outside a mosque. He didn't try to burn it down with Molotov cocktails. Would have been punished at all in Germany?

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/ma ... 29726.html

You are linking brexit not just with racism but extreme racism. Brexit supporter equals racism is what you are deliberately setting out to do. Leaving bacon sandwiche outside a mosque shouldn't lead to jail sentence. I should be able to get on a bus with a dog without hassle from Muslims.

Psamathe
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Re: 'Brexit means Brexit' ... ** The Brexit Thread **

Postby Psamathe » 15 Jan 2017, 11:14am

Boyd wrote:
blackbike wrote:
Boyd wrote:Can I suggest you create a new topic unless you are suggesting that an attempting to burn down a synagogue in Germany was a product of Brexit? If so please expand.


Suggest anything you like. No need to ask me for permission.

I think it is very important to keep a close watch on what is happening in the EU. We know what has happened there in the recent past and we are still members, and there are many Brits who want us to remain so.

When a nation makes close alliances with other countries, and pools its human rights and other important areas of legislation with them, it should be vigilant and be ready to end those alliances if things get a bit dodgy.

We have recently heard about the death in prison of a man who was jailed for leaving a bacon sandwich outside a mosque. He didn't try to burn it down with Molotov cocktails. Would have been punished at all in Germany?

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/ma ... 29726.html

You are linking brexit not just with racism but extreme racism. Brexit supporter equals racism is what you are deliberately setting out to do. Leaving bacon sandwiche outside a mosque shouldn't lead to jail sentence. I should be able to get on a bus with a dog without hassle from Muslims.

But is does happen. e.g. the tragic murder/manslaughter (alleged?) of the Polish man in Harlow shortly after Brexit
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/sep/05/death-arkadiusz-jozwik-post-referendum-racism-xenophobes-brexit-vote wrote:The killing of a Polish man exposes the reality of post-referendum racism
...
These migrants will openly tell you about the verbal abuse they have faced from some individuals who wrongly feel empowered by the Brexit vote to express their racist and xenophobic views as if they were a legitimate position of the majority.


Again, I'm not suggesting or accusing Leave supporters of being racist but there does seem to be a degree of empowerment to those who are. From reports similar effects are being seem in some other EU countries as their own anti-EU politicians become more vocal and "mainstream" following the UK's Referendum Leave result (maybe helped by some of Farage's campaigning).

Ian

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bovlomov
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Re: 'Brexit means Brexit' ... ** The Brexit Thread **

Postby bovlomov » 15 Jan 2017, 11:27am

Boyd wrote: Leaving bacon sandwiche outside a mosque shouldn't lead to jail sentence. I should be able to get on a bus with a dog without hassle from Muslims.

To clarify again: The man was part of a group "hurling racial abuse at a member of the mosque". Perhaps that is not something that should incur a jail sentence, but it should be acknowledged.

I'm not sure why the newspaper chose that headline, or why the poster omitted the most important part of the story. The crime wasn't a prank with a sandwich - it was racially motivated intimidation.

PDQ Mobile
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Re: 'Brexit means Brexit' ... ** The Brexit Thread **

Postby PDQ Mobile » 15 Jan 2017, 12:43pm

Boyd wrote:
PDQ Mobile wrote:
We are all Europeans working together for the betterment of OUR Continent and our fellow citizens.

Divide and rule. Sadly now true .

I am glad you feel you have gained out of the EU, those who voted against clearly don't. Have you given that some consideration?


I do feel that and I could even back it up with a list of facts but lists are notoriously tedious.
Actually I don't feel that I have gained but I know that I have! Without question.

I also feel that the exit campaign told lies about what the EU is about and does. Not perfect but I still believe we are better off around the Brussels table.
Indeed a good deal of debate on here has been about maligning the personal traits of other posters point of view.
I would ( in spite of the tediousness of lists) be interested in list of concrete reasons why we would want to leave and be better off out. Rather than vague outdated Nationalistic ones.

PDQ Mobile
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Re: 'Brexit means Brexit' ... ** The Brexit Thread **

Postby PDQ Mobile » 15 Jan 2017, 12:49pm

PDQ Mobile wrote:
Boyd wrote:
PDQ Mobile wrote:
We are all Europeans working together for the betterment of OUR Continent and our fellow citizens.

Divide and rule. Sadly now true .

I am glad you feel you have gained out of the EU, those who voted against clearly don't. Have you given that some consideration?


I do feel that and I could even back it up with a list of facts but lists are notoriously tedious.
Actually I don't feel that I have gained but I know that I have! Without question.

I also feel that the exit campaign told lies about what the EU is about and does. Not perfect but I still believe we are better off around the Brussels table.
Indeed a good deal of debate on here has been about maligning the personal traits of other posters point of view.
I would ( in spite of the tediousness of lists) be interested in list of concrete reasons why we would want to leave and be better off out. Rather than vague outdated Nationalistic ones.

So if I may reverse the question, why do you feel that you are better off outside?
Or how you have been affected detrimentally by membership?
Genuinely and politely interested.

Boyd
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Re: 'Brexit means Brexit' ... ** The Brexit Thread **

Postby Boyd » 15 Jan 2017, 1:14pm

bovlomov wrote:
Boyd wrote: Leaving bacon sandwiche outside a mosque shouldn't lead to jail sentence. I should be able to get on a bus with a dog without hassle from Muslims.

To clarify again: The man was part of a group "hurling racial abuse at a member of the mosque". Perhaps that is not something that should incur a jail sentence, but it should be acknowledged.

I'm not sure why the newspaper chose that headline, or why the poster omitted the most important part of the story. The crime wasn't a prank with a sandwich - it was racially motivated intimidation.

My experience of Eastern Europeans in the UK is "you English are all lazy and on benefits" we found out they were paying them more than us for the exact same job and they all got the sack for bone idleness. So no sympathy from me for the rare xenophobic remarks of some U.K. citizens.

Boyd
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Re: 'Brexit means Brexit' ... ** The Brexit Thread **

Postby Boyd » 15 Jan 2017, 1:22pm

PDQ Mobile wrote:
PDQ Mobile wrote:
Boyd wrote:I am glad you feel you have gained out of the EU, those who voted against clearly don't. Have you given that some consideration?


I do feel that and I could even back it up with a list of facts but lists are notoriously tedious.
Actually I don't feel that I have gained but I know that I have! Without question.

I also feel that the exit campaign told lies about what the EU is about and does. Not perfect but I still believe we are better off around the Brussels table.
Indeed a good deal of debate on here has been about maligning the personal traits of other posters point of view.
I would ( in spite of the tediousness of lists) be interested in list of concrete reasons why we would want to leave and be better off out. Rather than vague outdated Nationalistic ones.

So if I may reverse the question, why do you feel that you are better off outside?
Or how you have been affected detrimentally by membership?
Genuinely and politely interested.

You seriously can not see how some people are worse off? You live in very selfish world. Supply and demand. The higher the supply of labour the lower the wages. It's the working class that have there wages reduced. People working 14 hours for 8 hours at minimum wage. Oh hang on it doesn't affect you so it doesn't matter. opps it does effect You it's in your benefits list.

PDQ Mobile
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Re: 'Brexit means Brexit' ... ** The Brexit Thread **

Postby PDQ Mobile » 15 Jan 2017, 2:15pm

Politely? I don't see that I am particularly selfish?
Why selfish? It's just my opinion.

So for you it's all about immigration?

You see I am not convinced that immigration into the UK is the one and only cause of low wages.
The lower value of the pound is also a factor.

That and our own Govt's long and ultimately now unsuccessful austerity drive.
Unemployment is relatively low here so the economy has arguably benefitted from some immigration.
There are a fair number of folk who have gone the other way to compensate for that immigration as well. That is found work in the EU.

Psamathe
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Re: 'Brexit means Brexit' ... ** The Brexit Thread **

Postby Psamathe » 15 Jan 2017, 2:26pm

Boyd wrote:
PDQ Mobile wrote:
PDQ Mobile wrote:


I do feel that and I could even back it up with a list of facts but lists are notoriously tedious.
Actually I don't feel that I have gained but I know that I have! Without question.

I also feel that the exit campaign told lies about what the EU is about and does. Not perfect but I still believe we are better off around the Brussels table.
Indeed a good deal of debate on here has been about maligning the personal traits of other posters point of view.
I would ( in spite of the tediousness of lists) be interested in list of concrete reasons why we would want to leave and be better off out. Rather than vague outdated Nationalistic ones.

So if I may reverse the question, why do you feel that you are better off outside?
Or how you have been affected detrimentally by membership?
Genuinely and politely interested.

You seriously can not see how some people are worse off? You live in very selfish world. Supply and demand. The higher the supply of labour the lower the wages. It's the working class that have there wages reduced. People working 14 hours for 8 hours at minimum wage. Oh hang on it doesn't affect you so it doesn't matter. opps it does effect You it's in your benefits list.

Lets have a bit less of this unpleasantness directed at people here please. We enjoy discussing things without the personal attacks.

We had over 80 pages of sensible discussions on a very controversial subject between people holding very different views without personal attacks. So we can manage in the future without personal attacks as well.

Ian

Psamathe
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Re: 'Brexit means Brexit' ... ** The Brexit Thread **

Postby Psamathe » 15 Jan 2017, 2:50pm

Boyd wrote:...
You seriously can not see how some people are worse off? You live in very selfish world. Supply and demand. The higher the supply of labour the lower the wages. It's the working class that have there wages reduced. People working 14 hours for 8 hours at minimum wage. Oh hang on it doesn't affect you so it doesn't matter. opps it does effect You it's in your benefits list.

Article from the Financial Times
https://www.ft.com/content/0deacb52-178b-11e6-9d98-00386a18e39d wrote:What is the effect of migration on unemployment and wages?

One theory has it that migrants compete with the local population for jobs, driving down wages and pushing up unemployment for British people. But this ignores the fact that migrants also buy goods and services — providing a boost to the economy and creating new jobs. Migrants might also bring useful skills that complement those of the indigenous workforce.

There is little evidence that more migrants push wages down or unemployment up. Economists from the Centre for Economic Performance at the London School of Economics say that when they look at the areas with the largest increase in EU immigration, these have not seen the sharpest falls in employment or wages since 2008.

Jonathan Wadsworth, one of the authors of the CEP report and a former member of the government’s Migration Advisory Committee, says: “There is still no evidence of an overall negative impact of immigration on jobs, [or] wages.”


https://www.theguardian.com/money/2016/may/11/eu-migrants-had-no-negative-effect-on-uk-wages-says-lse wrote:EU migrants have no negative effect on UK wages, says LSE
Research blames 2008 recession for lower real salaries rather than rise in foreign workers, adding they paid more into UK economy than they took out

From a Bank of England report
http://www.economicshelp.org/blog/6399/economics/impact-of-immigration-on-uk-economy/ wrote:Bank of England study on wages and immigration

A Bank of England found a rise in immigration had a tiny impact on overall wages – 10% more imigration – wages fall by 0.31%.


etc., etc.

And then discussing what has really been causing the decline in wages http://www.economicshelp.org/blog/24597/labour-markets/reasons-for-falling-wages/

Ian

mercalia
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Re: 'Brexit means Brexit' ... ** The Brexit Thread **

Postby mercalia » 15 Jan 2017, 3:14pm

its not only wages but housing? 2M+ from the EU means a lot of housing taken by them. I see them every where in London. If successive govts wont solve the only real problem that concerns many in the UK then so be it

reohn2
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Re: 'Brexit means Brexit' ... ** The Brexit Thread **

Postby reohn2 » 15 Jan 2017, 4:02pm

mercalia wrote:its not only wages but housing? 2M+ from the EU means a lot of housing taken by them. I see them every where in London. If successive govts wont solve the only real problem that concerns many in the UK then so be it


Hang on!
If there are foreigners working in the country,there must be work for them here.
By that reckoning immigrants are needed to fulfill the jobs UK workers can't,whatever the reason.
The fact that there aren't enough(affordable)houses isn't the foreigners fault it's ours for not building them.
X number of jobs,need X number of people,therefore need X number of(affordable) houses.
That's a simple equation,don't blame the foreigners for it.
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Mick F
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Re: 'Brexit means Brexit' ... ** The Brexit Thread **

Postby Mick F » 15 Jan 2017, 4:03pm

WHY are we batter off in a European Superstate?

I can understand co-opertion with neighbouring countries, and even co-operation globally.
But WHY do we need laws and government from "Europe"?

That is my position.
Nowt to do with immigration.

We were ok before the Common Market, and even after joining, we were ok too.
Having a European Superstate is way too far.

Sooner we get out, the better.
Should have done it yonks ago, and we wouldn't be having all this fuss.

Off soapbox now. :wink:
Mick F. Cornwall