** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

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pwa
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby pwa » 16 Mar 2019, 10:33pm

PDQ Mobile wrote:
pwa wrote:So you have the man banged to rights as a hypocrite. That still doesn't make him a Nazi. It doesn't make him a Far Right extremist. It just makes him a hypocrite.


I have not invoked Godwin's Law and it is unfair to impune that I have.
I find his views very repugnant.

I find his stance on the EU far from anything that during my travels I have experienced.

I have however some experience with Oxford and Eton people and there are many similar to him.
Some of have very elitist and extreme views and they have much in common with Mogg in my judgement.
You go on the hungry island with them! But you won't sleep deep!

I merely wish to state my view.
I think he would be a terrible person to have in any position of real power. He has done enough divisive damage already.
Deep down I think I may have been closer in my earlier casual assessment that many who voted leave admire and respect the man, in spite of protesting otherwise?
Still if I can damage him then I will.
I took that position after his Waterloo statement.
The hypocrisy came later!

The man is a living lampoon, a ridiculous cartoon, but if I ever find myself marooned with him on an island with no food I will remember your words of warning.

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mjr
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mjr » 16 Mar 2019, 10:47pm

mercalia wrote:I am surprised Farage hasnt been exploiting the yellow vest? The latest crop of them -
brexit 3.JPG
brexit.JPG
brexit 2.JPG
maybe this will happen here if Brexit is thwarted?

Not likely. Just look at the Leave Means Lies "march" and how well it's going. Media and protesters outnumber marchers, plus there's top taunting of the bus-bound Farage by Led By Donkeys!
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pete75
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby pete75 » 16 Mar 2019, 11:16pm

Bonefishblues wrote:
pete75 wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:Somehow I knew you'd be back :wink:


And you too :wink:

Yes but no but it's all about the final word so I can be winnah of the internet :D


Which you seem to wannabe..... :lol:

Bonefishblues
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Bonefishblues » 16 Mar 2019, 11:22pm

Enough, this must end :P

pete75
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby pete75 » 16 Mar 2019, 11:22pm

Oldjohnw wrote:extremsts, of whatever place on the political spectrum, do not use democratic means to advance their cause. Mogg and Farage do work within the system, just, but their comments often give succour to extremists.


That's not quite true. The Nazi party along with their allies the DNVP won a majority in the 1933 Reichstag elections.

pete75
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby pete75 » 16 Mar 2019, 11:28pm

Bonefishblues wrote:Enough, this must end :P


Ok and it can end in agreement. JRM is a fine chap and should be PM. Happy with that?

mercalia
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mercalia » 16 Mar 2019, 11:51pm


Bonefishblues
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Bonefishblues » 17 Mar 2019, 8:30am

pete75 wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:Enough, this must end :P


Ok and it can end in agreement. JRM is a fine chap and should be PM. Happy with that?

I wish I'd been drinking/smoking what you were last night :D

Bonefishblues
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Bonefishblues » 17 Mar 2019, 8:36am

mercalia wrote:Disbelief in Europe and the damage done to the "mother of parliaments"


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/16/brexit-disbelief-in-europe-at-another-lost-week-theresa-may-strasbourg-juncker

Sobering article indeed. The failure is all ours.

mercalia
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mercalia » 17 Mar 2019, 9:12am

Bonefishblues wrote:
mercalia wrote:Disbelief in Europe and the damage done to the "mother of parliaments"


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/16/brexit-disbelief-in-europe-at-another-lost-week-theresa-may-strasbourg-juncker

Sobering article indeed. The failure is all ours.


yes but I dont agree with the assessment of the ERG & DUP holding the country to ransom. Rather I think they are just pointing out re the backstop that it was always a bad stupid deal that May was creating and there fore wasted the last 2-3 years building a mansion on sand. Stupid, incompetent, negligent woman - that she is still there pedaling her wares is the shame of this country. By the time anything happens it will be going on 4 years and the referendum ceases to be valid the electorate having changed purely in terms of bodies. The sad thing is that I hope that the EU will only allow more time if there is another referendum; sad to have to rely on the EU to save our bacon.

Bonefishblues
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Bonefishblues » 17 Mar 2019, 9:21am

mercalia wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:
mercalia wrote:Disbelief in Europe and the damage done to the "mother of parliaments"


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/16/brexit-disbelief-in-europe-at-another-lost-week-theresa-may-strasbourg-juncker

Sobering article indeed. The failure is all ours.


yes but I dont agree with the assessment of the ERG & DUP holding the country to ransom. Rather I think they are just pointing out re the backstop that it was always a bad stupid deal that May was creating and there fore wasted the last 2-3 years building a mansion on sand. Stupid, incompetent, negligent woman - that she is still there pedaling her wares is the shame of this country. By the time anything happens it will be going on 4 years and the referendum ceases to be valid the electorate having changed purely in terms of bodies. The sad thing is that I hope that the EU will only allow more time if there is another referendum; sad to have to rely on the EU to save our bacon.

So what could/should she, or anyone else in her position have done, I find myself musing - and I really don't know the answer.

The EU was never going to roll over, and why would they? Both main Parties have deeply entrenched divisions, yada yada yada. We were on the way to the accident from the moment we voted Leave (and arguably a long way prior to that).

mercalia
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mercalia » 17 Mar 2019, 9:35am

Bonefishblues wrote:
mercalia wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:Sobering article indeed. The failure is all ours.


yes but I dont agree with the assessment of the ERG & DUP holding the country to ransom. Rather I think they are just pointing out re the backstop that it was always a bad stupid deal that May was creating and there fore wasted the last 2-3 years building a mansion on sand. Stupid, incompetent, negligent woman - that she is still there pedaling her wares is the shame of this country. By the time anything happens it will be going on 4 years and the referendum ceases to be valid the electorate having changed purely in terms of bodies. The sad thing is that I hope that the EU will only allow more time if there is another referendum; sad to have to rely on the EU to save our bacon.

So what could/should she, or anyone else in her position have done, I find myself musing - and I really don't know the answer.

The EU was never going to roll over, and why would they? Both main Parties have deeply entrenched divisions, yada yada yada. We were on the way to the accident from the moment we voted Leave (and arguably a long way prior to that).



well 1) never activate Article 50 right away 2) setup a cross party commitee to look into the consequences and problems once all the dust has settled 3) since the referendum was only advisory report back to the country that Brexit is a bad idea impossible to implelement without damaging sovereignty of the various parts of the country or keeping faith with the GFA so not binding 4) this would all take time and hopefully the electorate would have changed its mind sufficiently if necessary just due to brext-eers dieing and being replaced by younger pro EU voters. Result the tory party internal conflict has been assuaged and the country can forget about it and carry on as before.

But Mrs May is power mad wants to leave her mark on history what ever the conserquences
Last edited by mercalia on 17 Mar 2019, 9:43am, edited 8 times in total.

PDQ Mobile
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby PDQ Mobile » 17 Mar 2019, 9:36am

pwa wrote:
PDQ Mobile wrote:The man is a living lampoon, a ridiculous cartoon, but if I ever find myself marooned with him on an island with no food I will remember your words of warning.


I think you would be well advised.
To see him as a cartoon is to underestimate.

If one takes all the things that we know about Mogg it adds up to a man filled with self interest, not a man on a crusade for a better Britain.
He is a product of an elitist and antisocial system and of his strange elitist father. Trained in the art of debate by years in the self same system. Beware of his voice!

It is my view that he sees the EU as having regulated in ways hindering him in fulfilling his personal aims to accrue vast wealth, and by association, power.
His opposition to some "green" rules, put in place by the EU in an attempt to improve both soil quality and species diversity, are a clear indicator of that IMV.
I am not a financial expert but it would not be a stretch to imagine that some areas of EU financial regulation he finds irksome and they get in his way. His business is Venture Capitalism, which is quite rightly regulated to some extent at least. The consequences of not doing so, I surely do not need to spell out.

So broadly the man would like to see a bonfire of regulation in those two areas for starters. Extending that bonfire into workers rights and conditions would likely follow IMV.

Now those self same regulations were agreed in Brussels by ALL the member states. The agricultural regs I find sensible, a small compromise between "cheap food" and yet a beneficial eye on other portions of the ecosphere.
Changing them requires international discussion and agreement across many areas of knowledge and experience.
Not a one man crusade just because Mogg doesn't like something in his way to larger profit on his acres and profits.

If you lay onto those areas the proven extreme religious and moral hypocrisy of the man then you are, IMV, left with no other conclusion that his interest is not for the good of the UK, but quite simply for himself.

He is not alone in that of course, (Google Foxy!).
But his old fashioned and "moralistic" view of society make me even more determined to oppose him. I have no wish to return to the last century.

To throw away the membership of a diverse, tolerant, culturally rich and agriculturally fertile block, for a man of his narrow and self interested views, seems beyond any sensible analysis. IMV.

Bonefishblues
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Bonefishblues » 17 Mar 2019, 9:42am

mercalia wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:
mercalia wrote:
yes but I dont agree with the assessment of the ERG & DUP holding the country to ransom. Rather I think they are just pointing out re the backstop that it was always a bad stupid deal that May was creating and there fore wasted the last 2-3 years building a mansion on sand. Stupid, incompetent, negligent woman - that she is still there pedaling her wares is the shame of this country. By the time anything happens it will be going on 4 years and the referendum ceases to be valid the electorate having changed purely in terms of bodies. The sad thing is that I hope that the EU will only allow more time if there is another referendum; sad to have to rely on the EU to save our bacon.

So what could/should she, or anyone else in her position have done, I find myself musing - and I really don't know the answer.

The EU was never going to roll over, and why would they? Both main Parties have deeply entrenched divisions, yada yada yada. We were on the way to the accident from the moment we voted Leave (and arguably a long way prior to that).



well 1) never activated Article 50 right away 2) setup a cross party commitee to look into the consequences and problems 3) since the referendum was only advisory report back to the country that Brexit is a bad idea impossible to implelement without damaging sovereignty of the various parts of the country or keeping faith with the GFA 4) this would all take time and hopefully the electorate would have changed its mind sufficiently if necessary just due to brext-eers dieing and being replaced by younger pro EU voters

Certainly 1. didn't happen - it was what, 9-10 months afterwards, in the face of increasing clamour from all sides.
2. Agree
3. Everyone went into it with the clear understanding it was binding
4.I've seen this a lot, but it's illusory, I fear - the population's ageing faster than new voters are coming onto the electoral roll, and we know that older voters had every bit as much of a tendency to Brexit as younger ones had to Remain. (But if you were to instead talk about mobilising the younger voters to a greater degree than first time round, then you might be onto something)

mercalia
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mercalia » 17 Mar 2019, 9:50am

Bonefishblues wrote:
mercalia wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:So what could/should she, or anyone else in her position have done, I find myself musing - and I really don't know the answer.

The EU was never going to roll over, and why would they? Both main Parties have deeply entrenched divisions, yada yada yada. We were on the way to the accident from the moment we voted Leave (and arguably a long way prior to that).



well 1) never activated Article 50 right away 2) setup a cross party commitee to look into the consequences and problems 3) since the referendum was only advisory report back to the country that Brexit is a bad idea impossible to implelement without damaging sovereignty of the various parts of the country or keeping faith with the GFA 4) this would all take time and hopefully the electorate would have changed its mind sufficiently if necessary just due to brext-eers dieing and being replaced by younger pro EU voters

Certainly 1. didn't happen - it was what, 9-10 months afterwards, in the face of increasing clamour from all sides.
2. Agree
3. Everyone went into it with the clear understanding it was binding
4.I've seen this a lot, but it's illusory, I fear - the population's ageing faster than new voters are coming onto the electoral roll, and we know that older voters had every bit as much of a tendency to Brexit as younger ones had to Remain. (But if you were to instead talk about mobilising the younger voters to a greater degree than first time round, then you might be onto something)


well your ( 1) its what she should done
your (3) it being binding was a false offer in face of the impossibility of it happening for the reasons given. ie just another lie of many, like many election promises
your (4) not sure it is happening and you are assuming that remainers become leavers as they get older. Any way that issue was a fall back suggestion, the hope is that a sane and considered report back would convince enough leavers that they can't have what was promised, it was a pipe dream? ( that seems to be happening) & any way any referendum can only be valid for a certain amount of time eg no longer than the duration of a parliament?
Last edited by mercalia on 17 Mar 2019, 9:57am, edited 2 times in total.