** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

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Cunobelin
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Cunobelin » 18 Mar 2019, 8:31am

Bonefishblues wrote:
mjr wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:Yep, got it, I remember all the politicians mentioned that now you say it. Nigel 'Advisory' Garage, Boris 'Tell us what you think' Johnson, Call me Dave 'Best of Two, or Three, or as many as it takes' Cameron.

No, I have a clear recollection of events, thanks. The population went to vote in the clear understanding that the result would be enacted. That's the point I am making. I'm making no comment on its legal status, and whether that was or wasn't known, and how widely.

But assuming that you are correct, perhaps others on the Forum can confirm that I am deluded and that they didn't have that expectation?

They don't seem to be answering, so I'll challenge your recollection with academics noting in Jan 2016 "strictly speaking, it has no legal effect. It will be purely advisory and, in law, the government could simply ignore the result. In this it contrasts with the legislation for the electoral system referendum in 2011, which required the minister responsible to enact the result" (another legal expert wrote similar in the FT around that time but it's paywalled) and by the vote several newspapers and even, grudgingly, well down the page, the Brexit Broadcasting Corporation had reported it would be advisory.

Vote Leave's notorious Dominic Cummings relied on its advisory nature when arguing for people to vote Leave so the UK could get concessions from the EU and then hold another "referendum on the final terms of Brexit, if the first vote is for Out".

So I think it was well known but maybe not mentioned that much by politicians because firstly, people would ask them why they were keeping the final decision power, and hey, everyone thought Remain would win, so it was pretty irrelevant.

But anyway, if it had been binding, the disenfranchised UK citizens would have won their court case already and thrown the result out anyway!

I completely agree with all you say except your assertion that it was well known.

...but let's even leave that to one side.

cf my point in bold above. That is my point, the whole point, and nothing but the point I am making.


Another aspect about the "Will of the people" is what that actually was.....

If someone voted for the £350 m to the NHS, that is no longer part of the deal....
If someone voted for some of the more xenophobic claims about EU nationals working in the UK, that is no longer part of the deal
If someone voted because there would be all the trade deals in lace on day 1...that is no longer part of the deal


There is a big question about how many actually voted for what we have now. Remove the votes for all thise who did NOT vote for what we have now and see what happens

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bovlomov
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby bovlomov » 18 Mar 2019, 8:35am

The population went to vote in the clear understanding that the result would be enacted.

I'm not sure about that. There has been a feeling, since before the referendum was called, that the 'deep state' and/or the EU would never let it happen. Indeed, that belief is a key passage of the Leave Means Leave credo.

Whether it's wild conspiracy theory or a realistic assessment isn't the point. We'll never know how much that opinion influenced the result, but I think it's fair to say that some people voted to Leave thinking that it didn't matter because it wouldn't be allowed to happen. They could safely kick the government and/or EU with few consequences.
Last edited by bovlomov on 18 Mar 2019, 10:23am, edited 1 time in total.

Oldjohnw
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Oldjohnw » 18 Mar 2019, 8:36am

I never wanted Brexit in the first place but given that it is happening(?), it seems to me that the entire blame for the current mess, apart from Mrs May's disinclination for 30 months ago to seek consensus, lies with the DUP and ERG.

They consistently voted against her 'deal' (we don't really know what was in it: the main objection appeared to be the backstop) but now, after farting around for months, causing mayhem and humiliation for the entire country, look like accepting it. But now: they leave the EU late; if the deal is still refused we get EU elections, pay membership fees and spend another year beating each other up.

Contemptible.
Last edited by Oldjohnw on 18 Mar 2019, 8:37am, edited 2 times in total.
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Bonefishblues
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Bonefishblues » 18 Mar 2019, 8:37am

Cunobelin wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:
mjr wrote:They don't seem to be answering, so I'll challenge your recollection with academics noting in Jan 2016 "strictly speaking, it has no legal effect. It will be purely advisory and, in law, the government could simply ignore the result. In this it contrasts with the legislation for the electoral system referendum in 2011, which required the minister responsible to enact the result" (another legal expert wrote similar in the FT around that time but it's paywalled) and by the vote several newspapers and even, grudgingly, well down the page, the Brexit Broadcasting Corporation had reported it would be advisory.

Vote Leave's notorious Dominic Cummings relied on its advisory nature when arguing for people to vote Leave so the UK could get concessions from the EU and then hold another "referendum on the final terms of Brexit, if the first vote is for Out".

So I think it was well known but maybe not mentioned that much by politicians because firstly, people would ask them why they were keeping the final decision power, and hey, everyone thought Remain would win, so it was pretty irrelevant.

But anyway, if it had been binding, the disenfranchised UK citizens would have won their court case already and thrown the result out anyway!

I completely agree with all you say except your assertion that it was well known.

...but let's even leave that to one side.

cf my point in bold above. That is my point, the whole point, and nothing but the point I am making.


Another aspect about the "Will of the people" is what that actually was.....

If someone voted for the £350 m to the NHS, that is no longer part of the deal....
If someone voted for some of the more xenophobic claims about EU nationals working in the UK, that is no longer part of the deal
If someone voted because there would be all the trade deals in lace on day 1...that is no longer part of the deal


There is a big question about how many actually voted for what we have now. Remove the votes for all thise who did NOT vote for what we have now and see what happens

Now that's a different debate, shall we go on to that one?

Nothing to add to what you've just said, actually, as long as we also factor in any that may, for instance, have been reluctant remainers, but whose view may have changed due to the EU's intransigence in not giving us cake and allowing us to eat said cake.

The question is how many of these latter are there vs the former. Only one way to find out :D

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Bonefishblues » 18 Mar 2019, 8:38am

bovlomov wrote:
The population went to vote in the clear understanding that the result would be enacted.

I'm not sure about that. There has been a feeling, since before the referendum was called, that the 'deep state' and/or the EU would never let it happen. Indeed, that's belief is a key passage of the Leave Means Leave credo.

Whether it's wild conspiracy theory or a realistic assessment isn't the point. We'll never know how much that opinion influenced the result, but I think it's fair to say that some people voted to Leave thinking that it didn't matter because it wouldn't be allowed to happen. They could safely kick the government and/or EU with few consequences.

Happy to add what was inferred to my phrase:

The population went to vote in the clear understanding that the result would be enacted by our Parliament

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby reohn2 » 18 Mar 2019, 8:41am

NATURAL ANKLING wrote:Hi,
Play on words, who knows what the will of the people will be at any one time :?: .....

No one does but a second referendum would leave no one in doubt now the public know more about what Brexit entails and how it's most like to effect their lifes.
Of course there'll be those who vote on 'gut feeling' which isn't an informed choice just a prejudice based on no foundation or truth.
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reohn2
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby reohn2 » 18 Mar 2019, 9:02am

Cunobelin wrote:....... Remove the votes for all thise who did NOT vote for what we have now and see what happens

In short the leave voter was sold a pup by the likes of Farage,Fox,BoJo and a campaign now proven to have been funded illegally by their mate Aron Whatshisface.

There'll be them that realise that and would now change their on the issue.
Of course there'll be them who support such actions and see no wrong in it,and the 'gut feeling' voter who made up their mind long ago they don't like the EU for no good reason whatsoever........
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reohn2
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby reohn2 » 18 Mar 2019, 9:15am

Oldjohnw wrote:I never wanted Brexit in the first place but given that it is happening(?), it seems to me that the entire blame for the current mess, apart from Mrs May's disinclination for 30 months ago to seek consensus, lies with the DUP and ERG.

They consistently voted against her 'deal' (we don't really know what was in it: the main objection appeared to be the backstop) but now, after farting around for months, causing mayhem and humiliation for the entire country, look like accepting it. But now: they leave the EU late; if the deal is still refused we get EU elections, pay membership fees and spend another year beating each other up.

Contemptible.

Contemptible doesn't begin to describe the Tory government of the past decade,they've let the country sink to a level of farce and allowed extremists both within their party and within society run amok,whilst trebling national debt on a ticket of austerity sold as an answer to that debt.Alienating immigrants so much so they live in fear,not to mention the Windrush generation issue.
Demonising anyone on benefits including the disabled.
I could go on and on,they're lower than a snake's belly.
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kwackers
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby kwackers » 18 Mar 2019, 9:39am

Oldjohnw wrote:I never wanted Brexit in the first place but given that it is happening(?), it seems to me that the entire blame for the current mess, apart from Mrs May's disinclination for 30 months ago to seek consensus, lies with the DUP and ERG.

They consistently voted against her 'deal' (we don't really know what was in it: the main objection appeared to be the backstop) but now, after farting around for months, causing mayhem and humiliation for the entire country, look like accepting it. But now: they leave the EU late; if the deal is still refused we get EU elections, pay membership fees and spend another year beating each other up.

Contemptible.

May's deal would have happened if the executive had succeeded in removing parliaments 'final say'.
Remember she wanted to do the one thing that hasn't happened in this country since Cromwell's time - wrest control from parliament.

Once that stab in the eye for democracy was overturned then you were left with the reality of brexit.
It's a reality based on the problem that half the population don't want it and the other half don't actually agree on what it is they're after.

So then you've got politicians who have to represent the folk that voted for them - on both sides and if the folk themselves don't know what they want how can a politician know?
And that's just the "honest" ones, the rest peddle their view of what they think brexit is but that's just as befuddled as the general public.

This was all foreseen. I watched expert after expert pull it all apart before the referendum so even if you excuse Joe P for not being bothered enough to do their own research that doesn't explain why the folk we vote for and whom we expect to make evidence led decisions didn't bother either.

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby NATURAL ANKLING » 18 Mar 2019, 10:08am

Hi,
The trouble R2, is that we don't know how people voted.
So some voted on gut instinct, or the ones that professed to be well-informed, or Prejudiced, or family influences, or any other fancy.

I will say that like me the ones in the Mick F group :) The uninformed and ill informed beer belly fantasist, and I know you're not a gambling man, probably match that always stay can give no valid reason either numbers.

What's the worst the uninformed stupid always says stay, or the ones who couldn't be bothered to vote at all?
No don't answer that I know what you would say.

No one can definitely say, will have an answer to why anybody votes, would you deny me a vote Mick F Group or one of your family/friends whatever who simply rather not say / lied on how they voted?
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thirdcrank
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby thirdcrank » 18 Mar 2019, 10:17am

The speed with which some of the same old, same old comes round again puts the Large Hadron Collider to shame. Perhaps some of this could be harnessed in the interests of science with the hope of creating a black hole.

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Hobbs1951 » 18 Mar 2019, 10:35am

I am extremely weary of the will of the people refrain, I think it is now irrelevant anyway - three years on...best part of. In addition since when was the government (any government) really interested in democracy - just look at the inequalities and injustices ?

With regard to the referendum, one poster has mentioned the vote: consider this, the vote was an abstract thing; that no-one, including the Tory party had the remotest clue about the implications of Leave, and therefore all the vote was for was in or out.

Did anyone who voted Leave vote for job losses, higher food costs, higher fuel costs, reduced status in Europe and the World - the list is a long one and do you have the attention span ?

John.

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Bonefishblues » 18 Mar 2019, 10:41am

In the interests of balance, yes I remember one guy who was being interviewed in the lead up. He was posed with the question which said, in terms, '...it's going to have these costs and negatives, so it's likely that you would be worse off. Is that something you would be prepared to accept?'

He said, to his credit, that on balance he thought it was.

He was the only one I heard with that clarity of vision.

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NATURAL ANKLING
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby NATURAL ANKLING » 18 Mar 2019, 11:06am

Hi,
I remember one of my old bosses when I posed a solution to a problem, He dismissed it without a thought.

Three months later he seemed overly enthusiastic, he beckoned me over I suggested a solution that obviously come from somebody else, I said that I had posed that three months ago.
His answer was yes but it's right now it wasn't back then, I'm surprised he remembered but he probably did.

Back to the here and now, based on the fact that probably half still want to leave and half want to stay,
And the fact that the current PM and party also are hated, What's to be done.
It's unfortunate that the alternative is so weak.
The will of the people, new referendum, even in general election, is touted out daily, along with the let's just stay/leave now.
It's out of our hands for Joe Bloggs, unless you think the French way will be the way to Settle it.

On Accepting That when we leave I may be worse off, Yes I accept that and yes it's more on principle then anything else.
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reohn2
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby reohn2 » 18 Mar 2019, 11:33am

NATURAL ANKLING wrote:Hi,
The trouble R2, is that we don't know how people voted.
So some voted on gut instinct, or the ones that professed to be well-informed, or Prejudiced, or family influences, or any other fancy.

I will say that like me the ones in the Mick F group :) The uninformed and ill informed beer belly fantasist, and I know you're not a gambling man, probably match that always stay can give no valid reason either numbers.

What's the worst the uninformed stupid always says stay, or the ones who couldn't be bothered to vote at all?
No don't answer that I know what you would say.

No one can definitely say, will have an answer to why anybody votes, would you deny me a vote Mick F Group or one of your family/friends whatever who simply rather not say / lied on how they voted?


The remain vote was based on the status quo ie; that we know the EU ain't perfect but prefer being in it where the UK has influence on it's progress and that for the vast majority of UK citizens and importantly immigrants,will have a better life as a result.

The leave vote was based on being told a pack of lies by shysters who's names are all too familiar to us and who are set to gain from a 'bonfire of regulations' .
Or by people who wish to turf out the immigrants,MickF has said as much on this thread and who along with yourself bizarrely live in a part of the UK with very little immigration other than from over the border in England,a county which has benefitted most from EU Grant's and subsidises.
Or those who believe again bizarrely that the UK is in for a windfall of money that'll solve all the NHS's problems overnight.
Then there's those 'we aren't European' one's with no good reason other than that along with the gut feeling of 'I don't like the EU' with no other explanation or reason
Of course there are those want to take back control but who whined on when Theresa May didn't get her own way when she tried to subvert parliament and but for the actions of Gina Millar's campaign would've done so.

The Brexit issue from start to now has been a disaster for this country and will continue to be a disaster as the mess has only just begun.
The 52% were sold a pup by liars and shysters,more fool you if you can't see that,and even worse them that can but won't admit it through pride!
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