Cycling UK Forum

ANTONISH wrote:

londoncommuter0000 wrote:

durhambiker wrote:Disproven? How...you mean disagreed with!!.

No, disproven. Or rather - proven to be abject lies. The UK has never 'lost control' either of our borders or of our country. The EU does not and never has 'ruled' Britain, and has never had any desire to do so. The UK does not require the approval of the EU to police our borders, and has never had to seek such approval.

While we maintained nominal control of immigration external to the EU we did surrender control of immigration from within the EU.
The problem as I see it with the EU is the intention of the hierarchy of the EU to move towards ever closer political union - effectively a United States of Europe with in the fullness of time a European defence force. I voted to remain within the European economic community - not the EU
Apologies for going off topic.

But the referendum image given - remember Farage's poster? - was that we were being overrun by hundreds of thousands or non-EU immigrants over which we had no control. Lies at every turn.

reohn2 wrote:That is the worst fear and will be brought about by sheer incompetence and selfishness on the government and parliament's part.

My point above was that the present "mess" is Theresa May's particular version of the Brexit mess. She is beholden to her right wing. But anyone else would probably have had a different "mess". She has tried to triangulate the Leave voters, the Tory party membership and her right wing with the Remain side of the Conservative party. The first three of these line up nicely but don't line up with Remain. If you shift her position towards Labour/Remain/soft Brexit/TIG/Left wing of Tory party, you lose the three mentioned above. So you have a different sort of mess. She has tried to bridge the gap (with the help of Olly Robbins et al) but has discovered it isn't possible. Anybody else would have also discovered this but at a different point on the Leave/Remain scale.

More irony.

If Mrs May's deal gets voted down again in the next three months, and the EU refuse furthe dragging out ie extension, Operation Yellowhammer begins to execute no deal.

This delightful little bird has this wonderful song hitch says:

"A little bit of bread and no cheese."

Quite.

Oldjohnw wrote:More irony.

If Mrs May's deal gets voted down again in the next three months, and the EU refuse furthe dragging out ie extension, Operation Yellowhammer begins to execute no deal.

This delightful little bird has this wonderful song hitch says:

"A little bit of bread and no cheese."

Quite.

or should that be more like

horizon wrote:

reohn2 wrote:That is the worst fear and will be brought about by sheer incompetence and selfishness on the government and parliament's part.

My point above was that the present "mess" is Theresa May's particular version of the Brexit mess. She is beholden to her right wing. But anyone else would probably have had a different "mess". She has tried to triangulate the Leave voters, the Tory party membership and her right wing with the Remain side of the Conservative party. The first three of these line up nicely but don't line up with Remain. If you shift her position towards Labour/Remain/soft Brexit/TIG/Left wing of Tory party, you lose the three mentioned above. So you have a different sort of mess. She has tried to bridge the gap (with the help of Olly Robbins et al) but has discovered it isn't possible. Anybody else would have also discovered this but at a different point on the Leave/Remain scale.

All the speculation of if but's and maybe's are worth squat.
The bottom line is that the UK painted itself into a corner by voting for Brexit and the current bunch of self seeking governing loonies for their own ends,lead by an imbecile who's foremost interest is her political party,then proceeded to carry on painting,with the DUP dictating were the paint should be applied.
As the corner becomes smaller with each passing day and the PM is still determined to have it her way or no way for the expedience of a small minority of leolibralist madman in her party who would rather see the country sink in the mire(if it could sink any further)for their own ends.
That's the unenviable position the UK is in presently by this government's own hand,and with the EU running very low on patience and increasingly frustrated with us.

EDITED for typos and clarity.

horizon wrote:Anybody else would have also discovered this but at a different point on the Leave/Remain scale.

Anyone else might have realised from the outset that those competing demands were incompatible. Lots of people did. May ignored them.

Anyone would have found any Brexit difficult to deliver. Theresa May, by her dishonesty, obstinacy, and weird obsessions, made it impossible.

bovlomov wrote:
Anyone would have found any Brexit difficult to deliver. Theresa May, by her dishonesty, obstinacy, and weird obsessions, made it impossible.

AIUI, the Tory party would have split had she moved towards a softer Brexit (and in effect worked with Labour). So she has stuck to her priorities but I'm not sure how it would have all panned out had she done it differently.

horizon wrote:

bovlomov wrote:
Anyone would have found any Brexit difficult to deliver. Theresa May, by her dishonesty, obstinacy, and weird obsessions, made it impossible.

AIUI, the Tory party would have split had she moved towards a softer Brexit (and in effect worked with Labour.) So she has stuck to her priorities but I'm not sure how it would have all panned out had she done it differently.

Quite right,party before country,isn't that a blue(sorry)print for her party?

so May is going after a quickie extension. what on earth does she think she can achieve? bring back her failed deal arguing that it is a new version? I hope Bercow laughs in her face and tells her to get knotted. I hope the EU also laughs in her face and tell her to either have a GE or a new Ref.

During a fractious PMQs, she said MPs had "indulged themselves on Europe for too long" and she wanted to avoid the UK taking part in European elections

the arrogance of the woman now scolding the mps like a school ma'am

looks like its for nothing


French president 'will block Brexit extension request'



French news magazine Le Point is reporting that President Emmanuel Macron will block Theresa May's request for an extension.

"For Macron, it is decided: it is necessary to stop beating around the bush, and refuse the British any postponement of Brexit," the publication writes.

"This is in any case the position he will express on Thursday at the European Council."

ANTONISH wrote:

londoncommuter0000 wrote:

durhambiker wrote:Disproven? How...you mean disagreed with!!.

No, disproven. Or rather - proven to be abject lies. The UK has never 'lost control' either of our borders or of our country. The EU does not and never has 'ruled' Britain, and has never had any desire to do so. The UK does not require the approval of the EU to police our borders, and has never had to seek such approval.

While we maintained nominal control of immigration external to the EU

No, we did not 'maintain nominal control of immigration external to the EU'. We maintained full control.

ANTONISH wrote:

londoncommuter0000 wrote:

durhambiker wrote:we did surrender control of immigration from within the EU.

Obvious nonsense.

Article 45(3) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union sets out derogations to the principles of free movement of people, which the UK can - and always has been able to - invoke to 'control our borders'.

The fantasy that Britain in some way 'surrendered' control of immigration is just that: a fantasy, spun by racists to whip up anti-immigrant feeling.

Great, as predicted it's another tedious multipage thread where people who enjoy arguing the toss over Brexit post stuff up that other people don't read. Exactly nobody will change their mind.

...something about that bus....

...something about democracy....

...something about panniers....

Oh no that last one would never get a look in on a cycling forum it's too contentious.

[moderator note: this post refers to a deleted post]That I find a sickening post. As a historian I could go on explaining that most of western European urban culture and society owes a lot to immigrants, but that is unlikely to persuade the supporters of brexit. But sick of fellow humans? Instead I treassure the memory of my grandfather being received with great hospitality in 1940 when his merchant ship was roped into the allied war effort and a friendly family in Newcastle became a home for him when his ship was not at sea sailing allied conveys. That is the England I admire, just like I admire Churchill's vision that the UK needed Europe for our joint peaceful future. Also, I will not forget that my town was liberated by Canadian and Polish soldiers who fought man to man street battles to clear out an SS regiment. Yes the Poles that you are apparently sick of, and of whom after the war many stayed behind in the UK because they could not go back to their Poland overrun by communism. I admire them just as much as I admire our British friends. And many made a great contribution to modern British culture and society.
Apart from our historical ties, just contemplate the current impact on your economy: the financial and manufacturing sectors are abandoning the UK ship. The same applies to academics (I know). We need each other ( I know - I am an economic historian: on your own you are doomed).

Interesting how if you are from the Uk living abroad you are called a neutral, softer sounding 'ex-pat'. However, if you are from outside the UK but living in the UK you are called an immigrant regardless of legal or employment status.

willem jongman wrote: Apart from our historical ties, just contemplate the current impact on your economy: the financial and manufacturing sectors are abandoning the UK ship. The same applies to academics (I know). We need each other ( I know - I am an economic historian: on your own you are doomed).

Willem, with the greatest respect you are wrong. Yes we do need each other but that should be as nation states not as a largely ignored country in a Franco German Empire. There is more to this than short term economic effects. I know you cant accept this and thats why you are wrong. Freed of the EU we will thrive.

Al

al_yrpal wrote:

willem jongman wrote: Apart from our historical ties, just contemplate the current impact on your economy: the financial and manufacturing sectors are abandoning the UK ship. The same applies to academics (I know). We need each other ( I know - I am an economic historian: on your own you are doomed).

Willem, with the greatest respect you are wrong. Yes we do need each other but that should be as nation states not as a largely ignored country in a Franco German Empire. There is more to this than short term economic effects. I know you cant accept this and thats why you are wrong. Freed of the EU we will thrive.

Unfortunately, we were a big beast in a union of peers, but we now seem doomed to be a serf flitting between EU, US and less transparently Russia.