** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Use this board for general non-cycling-related chat, or to introduce yourself to the forum.
Oldjohnw
Posts: 1117
Joined: 16 Oct 2018, 4:23am
Location: Northumberland

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Oldjohnw » 15 Apr 2019, 8:08am

I mst be well on the way to becoming a cat having had, it seems, three lifetimes.

I voted to either enter, or remain in the EU three times. Each once in a lifetime! If having another referendum is undemocratic, as some claim, then the 2016 one was undemocratic. We'd already made a decision!

Not that I really like referenda. Thy hardly tell us anything - certainly not the kind of Brexit (or voting system) people wanted.
John

Cycling and recycling

User avatar
Paulatic
Posts: 3810
Joined: 2 Feb 2014, 1:03pm
Location: 24 Hours from Lands End

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Paulatic » 15 Apr 2019, 8:29am

I’d never ever have thought this, but this morning I woke up and agreed with Lord Heseltine. He was intolerably right wing so where does it leave this present bunch?
https://www.channel4.com/news/lord-mich ... al-climate
Whatever I am, wherever I am, this is me. This is my life

https://stcleve.wordpress.com/category/lejog/

User avatar
Cugel
Posts: 1890
Joined: 13 Nov 2017, 11:14am

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Cugel » 15 Apr 2019, 8:58am

syklist wrote:
Mick F wrote:As far as I can see, and lots of others see it, the next step after EU is United States of Europe. May not happen this decade or the next, or even before I'm in my dotage, but it will happen.

Get out whilst we can.


You seem dislike federal states.

Do you think that the United States of America should also disband?

The structure of the UK is heading towards a federal type structure by devolving powers to the constituent states. Is that a bad thing too?


The logic of the leaver is that every civil association must be disbanded in favour of an eventual fragmentation to individual humans.

Personally I believe that one underlying but unregcognised motive for wanting to leave is a deep-down fetish with individualism of the extreme kind. ("I want to do only what I want and nothing else, despite what others want"). This mind-state leads to some strange assumption that there can be a perfect condition of life in which this happens (I only have what I want and nothing I don't want). All one has to do is to leave-off associating with others.

In real life, compromise and the associated tolerance for "what I don't like" is the only way for humans to live successfully together. Few, if any, can be Davy Crockett living on their ownsome and fighting off the many bears that life brings wandering into our orbit.

But these lads and lasses have been brought up on the Yank filum and are convinced that if they can't be Davy Crockett they can at least be that Diehard bloke! Who needs other humans, eh? Just have a paddy until everyone else does as I want! If necessary, apply extreme force.

Well, even they - despite pretending that they are somehow independent and able to survive in Little England just by twitching their curtain and tutting at things that don't suit them - need others. Sometimes The Others. Yes they do. They may find this out the hard way. In fact, they seem determined to do so.

Unfortunately, we who already understand this hard way are going to have to be subject to a repeat of it's lessons as well.

Cugel

kwackers
Posts: 12821
Joined: 4 Jun 2008, 9:29pm
Location: Warrington

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby kwackers » 15 Apr 2019, 9:02am

Cugel wrote:Personally I believe that one underlying but unregcognised motive for wanting to leave is a deep-down fetish with individualism of the extreme kind. ("I want to do only what I want and nothing else, despite what others want").

I think you've just described Mick in an nutshell.

User avatar
Cugel
Posts: 1890
Joined: 13 Nov 2017, 11:14am

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Cugel » 15 Apr 2019, 9:11am

Oldjohnw wrote:9snip)

Not that I really like referenda. Thy hardly tell us anything - certainly not the kind of Brexit (or voting system) people wanted.


Well, this referendum seems to have gelled what a large proportion of the popultion wanted - a return to the cultural conditions of the 50s inclusive of jingoism, xenophobia and even racism. There are many who claim these are not their motives for wanting to leave - and perhaps it's true of some of them. However ....

This thread has a major theme that is: "Please explain your reasons for wanting to leave". There is a fairly deafening silence to this question. Yet when I ask the many leave-voters I know personally, whatever answer I can get from them soon comes down to jingoism ("We are better than them French, Germans, etc."). Or to xenophobia ("The Germans and French are trying to win the war by forming an EU Superstate and Army of which they are in sole charge"). Or racist ("Those immigrants are swamping us with their filthy religions, foods and evil behaviours").

There are those among us who say that we should understand the point of view of those we disagree with on this matter of Brexit. I agree. I think I've understood a lot of it already.

**********
For those that feel the EU really is more of a danger to our way of life than would be an ERG Tory way of life ..... well, I disagree. But I suppose it all depends on what "our way of life" is defined to be. Mine has never been that of a Little Englander, a Jingoist or any kind of flag-waving patriot exploiter of the "damned dark foreigner" or the "damned native undeserving poor".

Cugel

User avatar
bovlomov
Posts: 3672
Joined: 5 Apr 2007, 7:45am
Contact:

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby bovlomov » 15 Apr 2019, 9:25am

Cugel wrote:Personally I believe that one underlying but unregcognised motive for wanting to leave is a deep-down fetish with individualism of the extreme kind. ("I want to do only what I want and nothing else, despite what others want").

I'm not sure it's individualism. Many seem to love being in a tribe.

Though the left is criticised for its obsession with 'identity politics', identity politics has entirely consumed the right. Policies don't matter. There aren't any. It's all about who 'we' are and - most importantly - who 'they' are.

As the tribe only exists in the mind, it could be called psycho-tribalism.

User avatar
Lance Dopestrong
Posts: 1227
Joined: 18 Sep 2014, 1:52pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Lance Dopestrong » 15 Apr 2019, 9:33am

The problem with the above arguments is that they can be applied in both directions. Of course, the people citing them are usually blind to this duality.
https://themediocrecyclist.home.blog
Self employed MIAS L5.B Instructor.
Warwickshire Lowland Rescue Bike lead.
IPMBA certified member.
Cyctech C2 hammer and crowbar bodger.
Lapsed CTC Ride Leader, amateur hour stuff from the fun old days.

merseymouth
Posts: 765
Joined: 23 Jan 2011, 11:16am

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby merseymouth » 15 Apr 2019, 9:42am

Morning all, As one who did take part in the Harold Wilson 1975 Referendum let me put this clearly. That vote was not about Remaining or Leaving the E.U., no it concerned the European Economic Community, a very different entity!
It was a cooperation body for mutual benefit with member countries still having control and sovereignty over the own country, something which cannot be said about the E.U.! The EEC was a trading partnership, no more no less.
This country was lumbered with E.U. compliance by various UK Governments, without our expressed consent.
But one thing is clear about this whole E.U. mess - it was M.P.s who got us into it and M.P.s are obstructing us leaving it! A real life "Hotel California".
The Dis-United States of America is far from harmonious with regards to their President, Trump didn't even get the most votes, but their system has it's own defects.
Even the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland has a great disparity over accountability. Their is devolution applied to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, with their Parliaments/Assemblies having control over their affairs, (Northern Ireland has screwed up its own assembly), the English electorate have no say in such matters. The same cannot be said about English domestic issues! The sight of SNP, DUP, Plaid Cymru and other assorted members from those parts of the UK can stick their oar in matter solely related to English affair. Even the spectre of the absent Sein Fein muddies our waters!
The UK complies with more E.U. Directives than any other state, many E.U. states do dodgy things despite rules compelling them not to, such is life.
EEC, E.U., fruits of a very different kind. I would love to be a continuing member of an Economic Community, but membership of the emerging E.U. Super State is not the right way for most UK voters.
That M.P.s make life difficult is only to be expected, after all they follow the maxim - "Do as we say, Not do as we do"! :twisted: MM

User avatar
bovlomov
Posts: 3672
Joined: 5 Apr 2007, 7:45am
Contact:

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby bovlomov » 15 Apr 2019, 9:49am

Lance Dopestrong wrote:The problem with the above arguments is that they can be applied in both directions. Of course, the people citing them are usually blind to this duality.

It could be applied in both directions. As I said - it has long been a criticism of the left.

But it seems to be much more pronounced on the right, these days. Perhaps it is because people on the right tend (on average!) to be less educated, and thus less interested in political theory. Brexit, after all, was built without any plan or any policies. The political leaders can make whole speeches without ever articulating a detail of what they'd like to happen. It is ALL about identity.

I'm not saying this as a defence of the left, or of the centre. I'm saying it because - to me at least - it seems obvious.

PDQ Mobile
Posts: 2511
Joined: 2 Aug 2015, 4:40pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby PDQ Mobile » 15 Apr 2019, 10:03am

Quote MM
"The UK complies with more E.U. Directives than any other state, many E.U. states do dodgy things despite rules compelling them not to, such is life."

Too glib. Too all encompassing.

Citation or it's just trash.

reohn2
Posts: 34229
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby reohn2 » 15 Apr 2019, 10:05am

merseymouth wrote:.....EEC, E.U., fruits of a very different kind. I would love to be a continuing member of an Economic Community, but membership of the emerging E.U. Super State is not the right way for most UK voters.

I'll put it to you that the majority of people voting for brexit had nothing to do with "an EU Super State" and everything to do with the erroneous perception of foreigners stealing their jobs and the mistaken belief that the UK will be better off out of the EU because,as they see it,EU rules running the country,the so called "taking back control" fallacy,which will be detrimental to the UK as a whole but for the rich.


That M.P.s make life difficult is only to be expected, after all they follow the maxim - "Do as we say, Not do as we do"! :twisted: MM

That's due to an antiquated FPTP election system run by multinational companies and media moguls who buy political parties wholesale for their own interests.
-----------------------------------------------------------
I cycle therefore I am.

User avatar
Mick F
Spambuster
Posts: 45202
Joined: 7 Jan 2007, 11:24am
Location: Tamar Valley, Cornwall

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Mick F » 15 Apr 2019, 10:32am

kwackers wrote:
Cugel wrote:Personally I believe that one underlying but unregcognised motive for wanting to leave is a deep-down fetish with individualism of the extreme kind. ("I want to do only what I want and nothing else, despite what others want").

I think you've just described Mick in an nutshell.
I don't think you have.

Both of you are wrong.

Sorry, but not on the forum much over the last week or so. A few days away, and now a puppy to entertain. He's spark out now. :D

The USA was formed after a war, and many of the losers still want their "country back". It's not a given that the USA is united.

At least the USA is on one landmass - or at least the vast population is on one. We have never been in Europe as an entity. Yes, the continent of Europe has the British Isles in it, but not as a political single entity, and I have no wish to be in it likewise millions of others.

My point - as always is that the issue is Ever Closer Union. It has been said on here that doesn't mean a USU, but I maintain that it does ........ or will do as the next step. We've gone from a common market to a European Union in just a few decades. It won't stop there.

I'm not going to die in a ditch over this. I was given an In Out question and I voted out ............. and I would do so again.
Get out whilst we can ...... if indeed we can, but I was given the choice and I took it.
Mick F. Cornwall

reohn2
Posts: 34229
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby reohn2 » 15 Apr 2019, 10:42am

Mick F wrote:.........My point - as always is that the issue is Ever Closer Union. It has been said on here that doesn't mean a USU, but I maintain that it does ........ or will do as the next step. We've gone from a common market to a European Union in just a few decades. It won't stop there....


Do you really think the UK would give up it's right of governmental autonomy without consultation of the populous?
I'll put it to you that any governmental political party would comit political suicide overnight should it attempt to implement such a move.
-----------------------------------------------------------
I cycle therefore I am.

kwackers
Posts: 12821
Joined: 4 Jun 2008, 9:29pm
Location: Warrington

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby kwackers » 15 Apr 2019, 10:43am

Mick F wrote:
kwackers wrote:
Cugel wrote:Personally I believe that one underlying but unregcognised motive for wanting to leave is a deep-down fetish with individualism of the extreme kind. ("I want to do only what I want and nothing else, despite what others want").

I think you've just described Mick in an nutshell.
I don't think you have.

Both of you are wrong.

Nope, most definitely aren't.

I've seen enough of your posts and your views on things to know that is most definitely a good description of you.

Psamathe
Posts: 9790
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Psamathe » 15 Apr 2019, 10:43am

reohn2 wrote:
merseymouth wrote:.....EEC, E.U., fruits of a very different kind. I would love to be a continuing member of an Economic Community, but membership of the emerging E.U. Super State is not the right way for most UK voters.

I'll put it to you that the majority of people voting for brexit had nothing to do with "an EU Super State" .....

My understanding is that the creation of this alleged "EU Superstate" would require new or changed treaties which would require ratification and every EU member state would have a veto and could refuse to ratify. Thus, as a member the UK would have the power to block such a "Superstate" (if that was what we wanted to do).

I thought (my understanding and do correct me if I am wrong) is that qualified majority voting would not apply to such new significant treaties. I thought unanimity was needed got e.g. tax, foreign policy, defence, new member sates joining and social security (although the tax aspect is evolving (as agreed to by the UK)).

So those Leave supporters not going the EU superstate don't need to leave the EU to avoid it, the UK just has to say "no". What's more, if the UK says "no" we stop any EU superstate starting.

Ian
Last edited by Psamathe on 15 Apr 2019, 10:52am, edited 3 times in total.