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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Posted: 15 Apr 2019, 10:48am
by bovlomov
Is the EU finished (as many Brexit supporters have gleefully been predicting), or is it becoming a superstate (as Brexit supporters have been warning)? And is there nothing between?

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Posted: 15 Apr 2019, 10:52am
by [XAP]Bob
All this sovereignty talk...

There are about 34k laws on our statute books (commons library)
About 4.5k of those are influenced by EU legislation.
72 of those we voted against.


Can the leavers name one?


Its not a question of sovereignty...

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Posted: 15 Apr 2019, 10:54am
by reohn2
Psamathe wrote:
reohn2 wrote:
merseymouth wrote:.....EEC, E.U., fruits of a very different kind. I would love to be a continuing member of an Economic Community, but membership of the emerging E.U. Super State is not the right way for most UK voters.

I'll put it to you that the majority of people voting for brexit had nothing to do with "an EU Super State" .....

My understanding is that the creation of this alleged "EU Superstate" would require new or changed treaties which would require ratification and every EU member state would have a veto and could refuse to ratify. Thus, as a member the UK would have the power to block such a "Superstate" (if that was what we wanted to do).

I thought (my understanding and do correct me if I am wrong) is that qualified majority voting would not apply to such new significant treaties.

Ian

That's my understanding too.
But my point to MM and Mick was that the UK wouldn't agree or even consider such a tectonic political shift without consulting the populous first and the chances of that being agreed to by the population of the UK is so miniscule as to be non exisant.

The EU Super State pushers are either grossly mistaken or are using it to hide behind and cover up other beliefs and fears they have and aren't prepared to divulge.
EDITED for typos and clarity

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Posted: 15 Apr 2019, 11:00am
by NATURAL ANKLING
Hi,
kwackers wrote:
Cugel wrote:Personally I believe that one underlying but unregcognised motive for wanting to leave is a deep-down fetish with individualism of the extreme kind. ("I want to do only what I want and nothing else, despite what others want").

I think you've just described Mick in an nutshell.

Oh we're back to name-calling and insults :twisted:

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Posted: 15 Apr 2019, 11:19am
by thirdcrank
roubaixtuesday wrote:
Mick F wrote:
reohn2 wrote:I haven't accused you of gleaning your opinions from down the pub.
I never said you had.

It was suggested on here that I get my opinions from down the pub. I was explaining that other people have opinions and they aren't all at odds with mine. In fact, I don't know any remainers personally. Never met one or heard any. Only contact I have with remainers is on this forum.


This is so unlikely as to be almost inconceivable.

"I don't know any remainers personally who want to talk to me about the subject" might be accurate.


This (IMO astute) analysis seemed to go unremarked.

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Posted: 15 Apr 2019, 11:50am
by kwackers
NATURAL ANKLING wrote:Hi,
kwackers wrote:I think you've just described Mick in an nutshell.

Oh we're back to name-calling and insults :twisted:

Not at all, its a fact.

Find Micks posts on almost any subject you fancy. You'll find he states that he does what he wants and isn't interested in other peoples perspectives.
In fact find me a post where Mick actually does suggest he modifies his behaviour by taking into account what other people want.

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Posted: 15 Apr 2019, 12:02pm
by Cugel
Lance Dopestrong wrote:The problem with the above arguments is that they can be applied in both directions. Of course, the people citing them are usually blind to this duality.


Which arguments? And how are they "applied in both directions"? What are those directions and their intended destinations or outcomes?

My own feeling is that there is a fundamental difference between most Leave and most Remain attitudes, to a whole range of things. And a fundamental difference in the underlying beliefs about practical and impractical ways for humans to live together.

These differences have manifested throughout history. They centre on the difference between those who believe compromise and tolerance is the best general method of forming a good society with those who believe that it can only be "my way or the highway - winner or loser".

Until recently, co-operation and tolerance gave us 70 relatively peaceable and productive years. We now seem on the cusp of a return to internecine intolerance and the associated strife that Europe (and then the whole world) suffered for centuries. Parochialism is the right word for it, even if it might be parishes as big as nations.

Anyroadup, I would be interested to see you anwers to the intial questions of my post - if you have any. Specifics would be welcome.

Cugel

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Posted: 15 Apr 2019, 1:15pm
by reohn2
kwackers wrote:
NATURAL ANKLING wrote:Hi,
kwackers wrote:I think you've just described Mick in an nutshell.

Oh we're back to name-calling and insults :twisted:

Not at all, its a fact.

Find Micks posts on almost any subject you fancy. You'll find he states that he does what he wants and isn't interested in other peoples perspectives.
In fact find me a post where Mick actually does suggest he modifies his behaviour by taking into account what other people want.

I've got to say that find that a bit of a harsh judgement of someone who you only know on an internet forum.

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Posted: 15 Apr 2019, 1:21pm
by Mick F
I don't know about anyone else on this forum, but I am an independent chap. I'm my own boss and I expect others to be like me too.
I have asked for advice on here. Whether I act on it or not is my decision, but I do listen/read it. Threads long enough will give contradictory advice anyway.




As for the rules of the EU, that is how it is now. That is how it is now with the rules as they are now.

Not eventually perhaps. Not the way it could be in the future. Who's to say?
If UK was about to lose its sovereignty to a United States of Europe we would have guess what?

A referendum! :shock: :lol:

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Posted: 15 Apr 2019, 1:44pm
by merseymouth
Hi there, Plus 2 for that Mick :D .
Control is at the heart of the E.U. agenda, coercion as a standard weapon. Big Brother will knock your lights out :roll: .
If we agree that our Westminster M.P.s take liberties with expenses, then we must see that M.E.P.s do even more wrong!
Wish I had Nigel Garage's Pension Pot :twisted: IGICB MM

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Posted: 15 Apr 2019, 1:49pm
by PDQ Mobile
merseymouth wrote:Control is at the heart of the E.U. agenda, coercion as a standard weapon. Big Brother will knock your lights out :roll: .


It's just unsubstantiated trash.
Citation or examples needed.

Perhaps really you are Farage?

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Posted: 15 Apr 2019, 1:51pm
by honesty
merseymouth wrote:Hi there, Plus 2 for that Mick :D .
Control is at the heart of the E.U. agenda, coercion as a standard weapon. Big Brother will knock your lights out :roll: .


Control is the centre of any government agenda. It is their whole point. To bring control to a geographic region through laws, social norms, etc.. The fact that you see this as a bad thing is baffling.

merseymouth wrote:If we agree that our Westminster M.P.s take liberties with expenses, then we must see that M.E.P.s do even more wrong!
Wish I had Nigel Garage's Pension Pot :twisted: IGICB MM


logical fallacy. You're assuming that because some of ours have done so, that all have done so. Unfortunately the only correlation between the 2 data sets is Right Wing British Politician. Humm.

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Posted: 15 Apr 2019, 1:56pm
by Mick F
PDQ Mobile wrote:It's just unsubstantiated trash.
Citation or examples needed.
No citations or examples from me, just a guess.
A pessimistic guess of course, because I'm not optimistic about our future in the EU.

Maybe the Remainers are optimistic for its future and we Leavers are pessimistic about it.

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Posted: 15 Apr 2019, 1:57pm
by reohn2
Mick F wrote:.......As for the rules of the EU, that is how it is now. That is how it is now with the rules as they are now.

Not eventually perhaps. Not the way it could be in the future. Who's to say?

The difference being that being a member state the UK would have influence on the direction the EU takes,not being a maember makes us extremely vulnerable to our nearest and biggest trading market.


If UK was about to lose its sovereignty to a United States of Europe we would have guess what?

A referendum! :shock: :lol:

But one would think the Uk will have learned something from the present **** up and would implement any referendum to at require at least a 60% majority for a change to be valid.A clear and concise system of laws surround any referendum and for any illegality in the referendum process to be punishable by a mandatory ten year prison sentence for all parties involved.

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Posted: 15 Apr 2019, 2:00pm
by reohn2
PDQ Mobile wrote:
merseymouth wrote:Control is at the heart of the E.U. agenda, coercion as a standard weapon. Big Brother will knock your lights out :roll: .


It's just unsubstantiated trash.
Citation or examples needed.

You wont get any from someone who talks out f his bottom :roll: .

Perhaps really you are Farage?

Perhaps he really is a Garage,who knows?