** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

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stu1102
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby stu1102 » 22 May 2019, 8:07am

Please don't forget :

David Davis, that there is “no downside” to exit and “many upsides” to the sharp fall in the pound' https://www.ft.com/content/45137d44-8f0 ... 28cb934b78

here are some upsides;

CBI said in its industrial trends monitor for May showed that without an agreement with the European Union, the manufacturing sector was gripped by “economic paralysis” and moving “ever closer to disaster”.
Amid concerns that British Steel faces bankruptcy with the loss of 4,500 jobs and a further 20,000 among suppliers, the CBI said continued stockpiling was not enough to offset the slowdown in manufacturing as a result of parliament’s failure to agree a Brexit deal.

Order books were below normal at 32% of manufacturers compared with 23% of firms where order books were above normal to give a rounded balance of -10%.

The CBI said May’s survey revealed the lowest order balance since October 2016, while export orders worsened to a balance not seen since immediately after the referendum vote in July 2016.

The slump came as the pound continued a slide that has knocked five cents off its value against the US dollar and four cents off its value against the euro since the beginning of the month. Sterling fell to $1.27 after hitting $1.32 earlier in the month.

all looking good

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Cugel
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Cugel » 22 May 2019, 8:22am

roubaixtuesday wrote:
bovlomov wrote:
Cugel wrote:
Those rightwing lunatics of the Tory stripe are not so daft, as they see the opportunity to turn Britain into a facist state in which they are the bigwigs.

There are pretty nasty people leading the way, but I'm not sure the Boris-supporting Tory members fit that description. I think the No Deal Tories are mostly scared, deluded, insular, and not a little selfish. They probably have no idea what kind of project they are supporting.


I don't agree with the use of "fascist". No-one expects a knock on the door in the middle of the night, although we should guard against any movement in that direction.

But i think many of the politically active do know exactly what they are supporting: a low regulation, high inequality, small government state. They helpfully wrote a book to describe it, calling the British "among the worst idlers in the world." - a fact those believing these ideologues are on the side of the working class might do well to note.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britannia_Unchained


The definition of fascism and fascist government do not hinge on whether there's a gestapo knocking at your door. It's much more to do with the monopolisation of power by an elite who are both immune to the rule of law yet able to apply draconian laws to others to suit their own purposes rather than the good of all. Typically fascist governments ally with or suborn big business, particularly that providing infrastructure and the means of subjugation, both of the citizens and "enemy" foreign nations. They are usually highly nationalistic, in a fashion similar to that which has emerged from the Brexit debacle.

At present, the likes of BoJo and Mogg are a part of a democratic government and, on the face of it, will say that they agree with and adhere to democracy. Consider, though, their behaviour and actual mode of operation. It's not exactly "representative of the people" is it? It definitely is a vehicle to promote the personal and private interests of those rather sociopathic individuals. A hedge fund is not really a public facility in any meaningful way, for example.

The present political situation is unprecedented in Britain since Victorian times. Tory and Labour are fragmenting and there is serious support for the likes of Farage or worse. RIght wing Tories note this and have already adopted his mode of rabble-rousing, scapegoating and all the other precursors to a move from being merely a far right parliamentarian to something with rather less inclination to be replaced by a free vote. (Fixed votes Putin-style, via the various subordinating propaganda techniques of the newspaps et al are OK).

I dearly and frantically hope this view is wrong. However, the current political situation has all the signs of a condition that's often, in the past, led to various kinds of totalitarian government. The flavour is not leftish, though. A communist state or similar seems highly unlikely, despite Tory hopes that Corbyn will admit to being "a Trot". The fact is that our society is already more like Brazil than Denmark, say. Consider this, for example:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... workhouses

Cugel
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bovlomov
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby bovlomov » 22 May 2019, 8:47am

stu1102 wrote:[Img]....[Img] (Nigel Lawson writing in the SUN)

Lawson is another lunatic. Either he is losing his memory or he is trying to rewrite history. There is nothing in Thatcher's approach to the EU that could be construed as support for any sort of Brexit, let alone for the Lawson version.

mercalia
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mercalia » 22 May 2019, 9:25am

I havent been able to make up my mind about May. Some timers she seems such fool with no politcal judgement, then other times she isa clever remainer who studied logic at uni and is using a Reductio ad absurdum style of argument to show how absurd Brexit really is? She has certainly convinced me; its a shame that 500 or so other MPs who activated article 50 didnt study Logic at uni also :wink: :roll: :lol:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum

mr bajokoses
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mr bajokoses » 22 May 2019, 9:39am

mercalia wrote:I havent been able to make up my mind about May. Some timers she seems such fool with no politcal judgement, then other times she isa clever remainer who studied logic at uni and is using a Reductio ad absurdum style of argument to show how absurd Brexit really is? She has certainly convinced me; its a shame that 500 or so other MPs who activated article 50 didnt study Logic at uni also :wink: :roll: :lol:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum


Whatever it is she is doing, it is clearly taking its toll. I was shocked yesterday when I saw her on the news. She looked exhausted, desperate, defeated, almost broken.

mercalia
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mercalia » 22 May 2019, 11:56am

so these are her Great New Ideas?
◾A guarantee of a Commons vote on whether to hold another referendum on the government's Brexit deal
◾A vote on different customs options, including a government proposal for a temporary customs union for goods - what Mrs May called a "customs compromise"
◾A legal obligation for the UK to "seek to conclude alternative arrangements" to replace the Northern Ireland backstop by the end of 2020
◾If the backstop does come into force, the bill would guarantee Northern Ireland remains aligned with the rest of the UK and remains in same customs territory
◾Legislation to ensure workers rights are "every bit as good, if not better" after Brexit - and guarantees of no dilution in environmental standards
◾A legal duty to seek changes to the political declaration on future relations with the EU

well Farage got milk-shaked what should happen to May?
1) votes on another referendum torys no , labour yes/maybe :roll:
2) vote on customs unions as 1) above
3) seeking an alternative to the backstop becomes a legal obligation. what does that mean and who cares
4) means all the UK comes into the backstop - not going to get many votes?

I think a few monkeys could put together a better policy?

I am getting worried at what is happening here. And we still have the 2nd Act to come BoJo the Clown in the wizard of EU

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Psamathe » 22 May 2019, 12:26pm

windmiller wrote:I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered by the EU's doublethink democracy.

Maybe you could explain what you mean as "the EU's doublethink democracy". As far as I'm aware the electoral system used for the European Parliament is actually far more representative than our own "First Past the Post" system.

I'm still waiting for any sort of example and evidence from your wild allegations about the Civil Service. Debate and discussions don't work if all you do is throw out wild unsubstantiated allegations and refuse to provide any examples and evidence. I would assume that as you spend your time reading and posting here you would be hoping to make others aware of e.g. EU shortcomings or help them understand why you or Leavers in general hold the views you do. But the wild unsubstantiated allegations with daft sound bites thrown-in actually serves convince people more that you and Leavers in general have no real grounds for their stance beyond having believed Farages/Blobby's fantasy lies.

Ian

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mjr
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mjr » 22 May 2019, 2:57pm

Mike Sales wrote:
Lance Dopestrong wrote:He's a tiny Englander ;)


I was wondering where the borders of the England he is so keen to defend lie.
Offa's Dike and Hadrian's Wall?

I suspect
Image
(England's borders as of 1190)
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mjr
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mjr » 22 May 2019, 2:59pm

Psamathe wrote:
windmiller wrote:I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered by the EU's doublethink democracy.

Maybe you could explain what you mean as "the EU's doublethink democracy". As far as I'm aware the electoral system used for the European Parliament is actually far more representative than our own "First Past the Post" system.

Plus we actually elect the whole European Parliament, compared to only 45% of the UK Parliament.
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windmiller
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby windmiller » 22 May 2019, 7:03pm

mjr wrote:
Psamathe wrote:
windmiller wrote:I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered by the EU's doublethink democracy.

Maybe you could explain what you mean as "the EU's doublethink democracy". As far as I'm aware the electoral system used for the European Parliament is actually far more representative than our own "First Past the Post" system.

Plus we actually elect the whole European Parliament, compared to only 45% of the UK Parliament.


we?

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Vorpal » 22 May 2019, 7:11pm

Psamathe wrote:
windmiller wrote:I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered by the EU's doublethink democracy.

Maybe you could explain what you mean as "the EU's doublethink democracy". As far as I'm aware the electoral system used for the European Parliament is actually far more representative than our own "First Past the Post" system.

The EU is Big Brother and all Remainers must worship it and remain firm in the belief that it is the one true democracy, all whilst being controlled by Big Brother.

:lol: :lol: :lol:
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Mike Sales » 22 May 2019, 7:17pm

Vorpal wrote:The EU is Big Brother and all Remainers must worship it and remain firm in the belief that it is the one true democracy, all whilst being controlled by Big Brother.

:lol: :lol: :lol:


I think we have thoroughly explored the murky shallows of Windy's world view, and no more needs to be said.

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mjr
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mjr » 22 May 2019, 8:52pm

windmiller wrote:
mjr wrote:
Psamathe wrote:Maybe you could explain what you mean as "the EU's doublethink democracy". As far as I'm aware the electoral system used for the European Parliament is actually far more representative than our own "First Past the Post" system.

Plus we actually elect the whole European Parliament, compared to only 45% of the UK Parliament.


we?

The people who live here, the general public.

I seriously hope you're not about to argue that dividing people into constituencies means we don't elect the whole Parliament...
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Mick F
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Mick F » 22 May 2019, 9:21pm

mjr wrote:(England's borders as of 1190)
I think a few Cornishmen and Cornishwomen would disagree with this.
Even this day and age, many would still disagree that Cornwall is or ever was in England.

I make a bit of fun of this (as an incomer) but some folk take it very seriously indeed.
Mick F. Cornwall

windmiller
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby windmiller » 23 May 2019, 12:01am

After the Brexit vote the sky collapsed onto the hive that is the liberal mind. The Scream by Edvard Munch is perhaps a better description of their 3 years of " It's not fair on me" hysteria. Well actually it is because democracy won. It won because that's what over 17 million leave voters put an X in the box for. The result won't change no matter how many utopian rainbow warriors parade in front of Tv cameras. You can't cancel Brexit without doing the same to democracy which is already hamstrung by those who think that they know best. Parliament has proven to be the home of bipedal invertebrates who seek to preseve the decaying status quo which paradoxically is beyond the comprehension of the imbeciles...... end of stating the bleeding obvious rant.