** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

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PDQ Mobile
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby PDQ Mobile » 18 Jun 2019, 12:42pm

Mick F wrote:
PDQ Mobile wrote:The EU are the "others" in your book and you want nothing to do with them.
In my view it is shortsighted and closed minded in the extreme.
Where did you get that idea from?

I've said many many times on here that I'm happy with the EU, but not UK being in it. Work with it, be friendly with it, trade with it, travel to it, all fine by me.

Just not IN it.

Buy Hey! Would care if Brexit was reversed?
Not much.
I'd care that the result of the referendum wasn't upheld like we were promised. That would be a betrayal.

Sounds like cake and eat it country.
It's not happening.

As for referendum, it's done to death on here, but it is by no means certain that it remains "the will of the people".

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661-Pete
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby 661-Pete » 18 Jun 2019, 12:57pm

Mick F wrote:I've said many many times on here that I'm happy with the EU
That's not what you said earlier:
I don't like porridge.
I'd rather starve than eat the horrible stuff.

EU?
Porridge?

Do you like it and can't see why anyone doesn't like it?
Or do you dislike it and don't understand why anyone likes it?
Yes you may seem to be talking about porridge, but you are bracketing porridge and the EU together. So I infer that "you don't like the EU".

I'd care that the result of the referendum wasn't upheld like we were promised. That would be a betrayal.
That's Tory-speak, pure and simple. Whatever you 'get', it won't be what anyone was 'promised'. And we, the nearly 49% in 2016 (and more now) are the ones being "betrayed"...
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661-Pete
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby 661-Pete » 18 Jun 2019, 1:01pm

roubaixtuesday wrote:A truly shocking survey that shows how Brexit has become more of a religion or cult than a policy.
"Appalling", yes; "shocking", maybe, maybe not; although half expected.

Almost all civil wars in history have sprung out of 'religion or cult'. Are we in for another one? Let Englanders stew in that thought for a while... :evil:
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PH
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby PH » 18 Jun 2019, 1:05pm

661-Pete wrote:
I'd care that the result of the referendum wasn't upheld like we were promised. That would be a betrayal.
That's Tory-speak, pure and simple.

Is it?
“However ignoring the 17.4m leave voters isn’t politically smart nor indeed particularly democratic. Is it?”

Labour chairman Ian Lavery replying to Tom Watson's campaign to change the party's position and back a second referendum.

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661-Pete
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby 661-Pete » 18 Jun 2019, 1:14pm

PH wrote:
661-Pete wrote:That's Tory-speak, pure and simple.

Is it?
“However ignoring the 17.4m leave voters isn’t politically smart nor indeed particularly democratic. Is it?”

Labour chairman Ian Lavery replying to Tom Watson's campaign to change the party's position and back a second referendum.
Not a contradiction by any means: I find some (but not all!) Labour utterances indistinguishable from those of the Tory leadership contenders, let alone Porage &Co.

That's what it's come to. :(
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby PH » 18 Jun 2019, 1:23pm

661-Pete wrote:That's Tory-speak, pure and simple.

661-Pete wrote: I find some (but not all!) Labour utterances indistinguishable from those of the Tory leadership contenders,

661-Pete wrote:Not a contradiction by any means


I doubt there's anything pure and simple about Brexit, one of the issues is the divisions are not along party lines and any possible outcome that isn't a disaster won't be either.

mercalia
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mercalia » 18 Jun 2019, 1:25pm

PH wrote:
661-Pete wrote:
I'd care that the result of the referendum wasn't upheld like we were promised. That would be a betrayal.
That's Tory-speak, pure and simple.

Is it?
“However ignoring the 17.4m leave voters isn’t politically smart nor indeed particularly democratic. Is it?”

Labour chairman Ian Lavery replying to Tom Watson's campaign to change the party's position and back a second referendum.



That was 3 years ago now. Goodness knows what the score is now, though we all have our suspicions? I feel every obligation to ignore dead brexit-eers

roubaixtuesday
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby roubaixtuesday » 18 Jun 2019, 1:29pm

Mick F wrote:
roubaixtuesday wrote:A truly shocking survey
I don't think it's shocking in the slightest.
It's what I would have expected. The tory party have been pulling themselves apart for years. This is why Cameron called the referendum .......... to unite his party. He was shocked that it didn't. I wasn't at all.

Remember, when the results of the referendum were announced, many people were shocked.
I wasn't shocked. The result was as I expected. I'd have been shocked if the result was remain and I'd have been shocked if the YouGov poll said anything different to what it has.

Shocking to you and countless others, but not shocking to me and countless others either I'd wager.


I wasn't surprised in the least.

It's shocking that Brexit has become a cult-like obsession which overrides everything conservative and unionist in the conservative and unionist party!

But not surprising.

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby roubaixtuesday » 18 Jun 2019, 1:32pm

Mick F wrote:
PDQ Mobile wrote:The EU are the "others" in your book and you want nothing to do with them.
In my view it is shortsighted and closed minded in the extreme.
Where did you get that idea from?

I've said many many times on here that I'm happy with the EU, but not UK being in it. Work with it, be friendly with it, trade with it, travel to it, all fine by me.

Just not IN it.

Buy Hey! Would care if Brexit was reversed?
Not much.
I'd care that the result of the referendum wasn't upheld like we were promised. That would be a betrayal.


I agree. Implementing a Brexit which is not easy, does not guarantee free trade and does not deliver £350 million a week would indeed be a betrayal.

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby roubaixtuesday » 18 Jun 2019, 1:33pm

661-Pete wrote:
roubaixtuesday wrote:A truly shocking survey that shows how Brexit has become more of a religion or cult than a policy.
"Appalling", yes; "shocking", maybe, maybe not; although half expected.

Almost all civil wars in history have sprung out of 'religion or cult'. Are we in for another one? Let Englanders stew in that thought for a while... :evil:


Appalling would be a better word than my choice of shocking. I was not intending to imply surprise.

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horizon
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby horizon » 18 Jun 2019, 1:33pm

PH wrote: one of the issues is the divisions are not along party lines and any possible outcome that isn't a disaster won't be either.


Brexit does fall along party lines (Labour is a very pro-Remain party apart from its leader). The problem is that Labour doesn't represent its voters. Ironically, the Conservative party is more coherent in this matter: both its members, voters and a huge chunk of its MPs are pro-Brexit. Its only problem is that Theresa May briefly touched base with reality whereas the Brexit party and the Conservative membership have yet to do so. Once Rory Stewart is offered the leadership of the LibDems all will become clear.
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby PH » 18 Jun 2019, 1:43pm

horizon wrote:
PH wrote: one of the issues is the divisions are not along party lines and any possible outcome that isn't a disaster won't be either.


Brexit does fall along party lines (Labour is a very pro-Remain party apart from its leader). The problem is that Labour doesn't represent its voters.

I don't know where you draw that conclusion from, the membership is split* and it's voters even more so. Party policy is made by the National Executive not the leadership. It would be true to say the Parliamentary Labour Party are pro-remain, but it isn't their party.

* There's currently a members consultation taking place by the National Policy Forum which will influence policy decided at the conference.

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mjr » 18 Jun 2019, 2:05pm

bovlomov wrote:
mercalia wrote:from the poll-
Approaching half (46%) of Conservative members would be happy to see Nigel Farage, a man who would otherwise be considered their most dangerous political foe, take over the reins of their party.

we live in interesting times.

I wonder how much of this is due to the radicalisation of existing Tories and how much is due to entryism. I've read that, since the Brexit Party has no membership, the Conservative Party has no mechanism for excluding its supporters.

It's definitely in line with other reports of entryism and that there are 40-50 thousand new members of the Conservative Party in the last year.

The Brexit Party does have a membership. It currently stands at four, according to the latest official paperwork. It's a reasonable guess that three of them are the directors and secretary of Brexit Party Limited: MEPs Nige and Tice, plus UKIP 2015 manifesto co-author and Rothschild spouse Phillip Basey - can you get much more neo-liberal elite?

This looks like a big problem for the Conservative Party. When the Labour Party has suffered hijack attempts (by Greens recently or Socialist Workers previously), it's been from other long-established political parties, so they've been able to identify and expel, sometimes rather heavy-handedly. The Conservatives are facing a hijack from a much newer party which has supporters not members.

So I think we arrive at the question: should as few as 40,000 activists be able to divert a country? And if not, what should be done to stop it?
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Mick F
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Mick F » 18 Jun 2019, 2:20pm

PDQ Mobile wrote:As for referendum, it's done to death on here, but it is by no means certain that it remains "the will of the people".
Of course it's not certain if it remains the will of the people.
Just like all votes - general elections included.

Three years down the line and the demographics have changed.
So what?

We voted. End of story ...................... :wink:
Mick F. Cornwall

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NATURAL ANKLING
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby NATURAL ANKLING » 18 Jun 2019, 2:21pm

Hi,
Mick F wrote:
PDQ Mobile wrote:As for referendum, it's done to death on here, but it is by no means certain that it remains "the will of the people".
Of course it's not certain if it remains the will of the people.
Just like all votes - general elections included.

Three years down the line and the demographics have changed.
So what?

We voted. End of story ...................... :wink:

Ouch! :mrgreen:

Fancy a nice coastal route Mick :)
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