** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

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PDQ Mobile
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby PDQ Mobile » 11 Jul 2019, 10:09am

reohn2 wrote:
bovlomov wrote:I'm talking more about the principle. UK democracy is in a very bad way. It is utterly unrepresentative, at the mercy of press barons and dark money. When I hear the argument that 'after Brexit we'll be able to make our own decisions', I look at our parliament and media and I shudder.

Spot on again Bov.

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pwa
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby pwa » 11 Jul 2019, 10:14am

PDQ Mobile wrote:
pwa wrote:(And I note the not very hard up Branson sticking his oar in for Remain again today).

Branson's focus was on the value of sterling.

While he is wealthy he is also a runner of genuine businesses, rather than a speculator like Rees Mogg or a seller or arms like Foxy.

Branson merely states that much of his business is conducted in dollars, notably but not only fuel.
If the pound drops to the levels he predicts, then inflation will be rampant in many sectors.
Interest rates would surely have to rise as a consequence, though that perversely might steady the pound.
Though in the present climate would be feared by many.

"Sticking his oar in" sounds rather biased.
He is a business man with an interest.
And he states that interest.
He has generally not been excessively vocal about Brexit as far as I recall.
And he is rather successful at running businesses that are renowned for being tough territory.


He purveys air travel. Hardly a model citizen on that score. He wants to blast humans into space for fun rides at a time when others are banging on about a "climate emergency". Odious is the word I would use for him.

reohn2
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby reohn2 » 11 Jul 2019, 10:18am

pwa wrote:He purveys air travel. Hardly a model citizen on that score. He wants to blast humans into space for fun rides at a time when others are banging on about a "climate emergency". Odious is the word I would use for him.

Yer not wrong!
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PDQ Mobile
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby PDQ Mobile » 11 Jul 2019, 10:20am

I agree about tha space travel.
He runs railways too and reasonably well I hear.

Maybe your copy book is not blotted and you never fly anywhere.

A fall in sterling makes us all poorer. In the end.

If Branson is odious how do you rate Banks, Foxy, Rees Mogg and a few others?
Last edited by PDQ Mobile on 11 Jul 2019, 10:24am, edited 2 times in total.

pete75
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby pete75 » 11 Jul 2019, 10:22am

pwa wrote:
bovlomov wrote:
pwa wrote:Democracy post Brexit will come down to the maths of the MPs. At the moment the Tories are struggling with a fractured governing party reliant on a fickle partner party. After the next election you think they will run away with a commanding majority? Really? They won't be propped up by large numbers of Brexit Party MPs because, as we already know from the UKIP experience, once Brexit is seen as being in the bag the whole point of the Brexit Party evaporates.

I'm talking more about the principle. UK democracy is in a very bad way. It is utterly unrepresentative, at the mercy of press barons and dark money. When I hear the argument that 'after Brexit we'll be able to make our own decisions', I look at our parliament and media and I shudder.

Press barons? Are we in the 1960s? To some extent you worry too much. I voted Tory at the last election. (Hope you didn't spill your coffee there). I would never vote for a party with Boris at the helm. I am exposed to all those dark forces you imagine and I am 100% not going to vote for a party with that clown in the driving seat. So a few years down the line this one-time Tory voter will be sitting on his hands or voting for a party other than the Tories. I believe there must be significant slice of sometimes Tory support out there for whom Boris is an absolute no-no. He will probably get the tiller for a while, but not for long. As soon as the ballots open he is out.


As if we didn't know you were a Tory!!
Press barons a sixties thing? You've never heard of Rupert Murdoch, Viscount Rothermere and the Barclay brothers then? ALl very active in controlling what their papers print and which political parties they support.

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bovlomov
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby bovlomov » 11 Jul 2019, 10:26am

pwa wrote:Press barons? Are we in the 1960s?

Yes, press barons. If you think they don't matter - Rothermere, the Barclays, Murdoch - look at Johnson's path to power.

I believe there must be significant slice of sometimes Tory support out there for whom Boris is an absolute no-no. He will probably get the tiller for a while, but not for long. As soon as the ballots open he is out.

The same was said of the Republican Party and Republican voters. Indeed, I thought the same myself. Surely they won't put up with it. They are conservative, above all; they have standards. But no - it turns out that tribalism rules, and that there are no depths to Trump's behaviour that they will not cheer on. The minority of Republican critics is very small indeed.

The same is already happening here, with self-proclaimed, long time Conservatives abandoning every single one of their supposed principles. And why? Who knows! Brexit? But Corbyn? But Sharia Law?

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby pwa » 11 Jul 2019, 10:38am

pete75 wrote:
pwa wrote:
bovlomov wrote:I'm talking more about the principle. UK democracy is in a very bad way. It is utterly unrepresentative, at the mercy of press barons and dark money. When I hear the argument that 'after Brexit we'll be able to make our own decisions', I look at our parliament and media and I shudder.

Press barons? Are we in the 1960s? To some extent you worry too much. I voted Tory at the last election. (Hope you didn't spill your coffee there). I would never vote for a party with Boris at the helm. I am exposed to all those dark forces you imagine and I am 100% not going to vote for a party with that clown in the driving seat. So a few years down the line this one-time Tory voter will be sitting on his hands or voting for a party other than the Tories. I believe there must be significant slice of sometimes Tory support out there for whom Boris is an absolute no-no. He will probably get the tiller for a while, but not for long. As soon as the ballots open he is out.


As if we didn't know you were a Tory!!
Press barons a sixties thing? You've never heard of Rupert Murdoch, Viscount Rothermere and the Barclay brothers then? ALl very active in controlling what their papers print and which political parties they support.


I told you I voted Tory at the time. And why. I am a swing voter. If anyone wants to know how the Tories will do at the next election with Bojo at the helm they need to ask people like me. Not you. Not people who would never vote Tory. Not people who always vote Tory. I am telling you that this swing voter sees having Bojo at the helm as a deal breaker.

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby andrec » 11 Jul 2019, 11:06am

bovlomov wrote:
pwa wrote:Populist is a valid term, meaning leaning towards easy "solutions" that won't actually work if implemented. Easy to sell to discontented punters, but fake. So it does mean something.

But it is also used in a lazy way to dismiss movements that challenge established paradigms such as neo-liberalism, globalisation and the EU. It saves you looking at those paradigms and questioning them.

I agree with that.

But in the context of Brexit - there is a subtext to many of the discussions about neo-liberalism, globalisation and the EU. It is that Remain is the guardian of the status quo for the comfortably off while Brexit is a movement for the equalisation of wealth and opportunity. While that may apply to elements in both camps, in general it is far from the truth.

Many of us would be less worried if we believed that Brexit was a project for social justice - populist or not. The evidence, however, points the other way. Brexit is a coup by the wealthy.


A coup by the wealthy which most wealthy and moderately affluent people opposed by voting Remain? Unlikely. The better off sections of our society, big business people, employers, the professional classes, farmers, the better paid public sector employees are mostly pro-EU because they do very well out of it. Brexit is coup by the less powerful which is why comfortably off Remainers are so appalled and incensed by it. They are used to telling the masses what to do and they resent having to abide by a decision of those they consider their social, economic and cultural inferiors. The pompous indignation and contempt expressed by a minority of them has been an amusing bonus of Brexit, and very revealing of their true, less than attractive personalities.

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bovlomov
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby bovlomov » 11 Jul 2019, 11:09am

andrec wrote:
bovlomov wrote:Many of us would be less worried if we believed that Brexit was a project for social justice - populist or not. The evidence, however, points the other way. Brexit is a coup by the wealthy.


A coup by the wealthy which most wealthy and moderately affluent people opposed by voting Remain?

Have you a source for this?

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby horizon » 11 Jul 2019, 11:23am

pwa wrote:
I told you I voted Tory at the time. And why. I am a swing voter.


pwa: I find your openness about your views very endearing. It allows us to see were you are coming from and understand your position better (mainly, why you support Brexit). It makes the debate that follows much more meaningful. I wish other Leave supporters would do the same rather than just making dark comments about democracy etc. I'm open to hearing other people's views (particularly on here as I know that, at the very least, they are cyclists :D ). Most of the Brexit supporters I have met are reasonable, fair and certainly non-racist, even if very sceptical. :shock:
Let's just get Brexit done so that we can get on with the important job of re-joining the EU!

pete75
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby pete75 » 11 Jul 2019, 11:31am

pwa wrote:
pete75 wrote:
pwa wrote:Press barons? Are we in the 1960s? To some extent you worry too much. I voted Tory at the last election. (Hope you didn't spill your coffee there). I would never vote for a party with Boris at the helm. I am exposed to all those dark forces you imagine and I am 100% not going to vote for a party with that clown in the driving seat. So a few years down the line this one-time Tory voter will be sitting on his hands or voting for a party other than the Tories. I believe there must be significant slice of sometimes Tory support out there for whom Boris is an absolute no-no. He will probably get the tiller for a while, but not for long. As soon as the ballots open he is out.


As if we didn't know you were a Tory!!
Press barons a sixties thing? You've never heard of Rupert Murdoch, Viscount Rothermere and the Barclay brothers then? ALl very active in controlling what their papers print and which political parties they support.


I told you I voted Tory at the time. And why. I am a swing voter. If anyone wants to know how the Tories will do at the next election with Bojo at the helm they need to ask people like me. Not you. Not people who would never vote Tory. Not people who always vote Tory. I am telling you that this swing voter sees having Bojo at the helm as a deal breaker.


It doesn't matter who I vote for. The Tories always get over 50% of the vote where I live.
The MP we currently have is now an ex Tory - Nick Boles.

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby 661-Pete » 11 Jul 2019, 11:37am

I suppose I'm a 'swing' voter too. I used to vote Labour. Then I voted LibDem for a while. Now I vote Green. Does that make me a proper 'swing' voter?
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby PDQ Mobile » 11 Jul 2019, 11:38am

pwa wrote:
I told you I voted Tory at the time. And why. I am a swing voter. If anyone wants to know how the Tories will do at the next election with Bojo at the helm they need to ask people like me. Not you. Not people who would never vote Tory. Not people who always vote Tory. I am telling you that this swing voter sees having Bojo at the helm as a deal breaker.


But Johnson was a member of the Cabinet at that time.
As Foreign Secretary perhaps third or forth in the rankings.

And a few others that I would consider undesirable to have in Govt. You know who I mean.

Or did one only vote for a PM? Or Brexit was overriding at the time but no longer?

I voted Green. They achieved the least votes in my constituency if memory serves.

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby kwackers » 11 Jul 2019, 11:39am

661-Pete wrote:I suppose I'm a 'swing' voter too. I used to vote Labour. Then I voted LibDem for a while. Now I vote Green. Does that make me a proper 'swing' voter?

I thought you had to put your car keys into a bowl or something?

pwa
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby pwa » 11 Jul 2019, 11:40am

pete75 wrote:[
It doesn't matter who I vote for. The Tories always get over 50% of the vote where I live.
The MP we currently have is now an ex Tory - Nick Boles.


The only reason I bring up who you vote for is that you definitely don't vote Tory, so you are not a good measure of how well Bojo will or won't bring in the Tory vote in marginal seats. As a swing voter I would not vote for his partly while he is in charge, and I expect that will be a popular view among swing voters. I think that electorally he will be a liability for his party, not an asset.