** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

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bovlomov
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby bovlomov » 13 Jul 2019, 9:08am

pwa wrote:Which shows that putting him on QT, alongside people with other strands of opinion, allows viewers to make up their own minds. As it should be.

There is never enough time to challenge him, and he is good at shouting down anyone who tries.

The single biggest problem is that telling a lie is quick, but refuting it takes time. Liars profit in almost all television formats - it's the same, whether they are lying about cycle helmets, climate change or WTO rules. Even the longer format shows, such as the Daily Politics, rarely allow a proper discussion of the subject in hand. The viewer certainly discovers that there are two opposing views, but s/he rarely learns any more than that. It's only in the past couple of months that political interviewers have armed themselves with the basics of trade law so they can challenge the rubbish about GATT XXIV and the Swiss border.

Until producers of TV politics shows learn to counter simple lies, we are doomed to have liars running the show.

kwackers
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby kwackers » 13 Jul 2019, 9:09am

pwa wrote:Your suspicions about what Farage may be like beneath the skin could be correct, but as long as he plays by the rules and doesn't give voice to overt racism etc he must be allowed to present his views. The alternative is a shut down society where only a narrow range of opinion is allowed to be expressed and anything outside that is suppressed. I'd not want to live in that sort of society.

The question is where do you draw the line?

Moving the line invariably moves the median view, if it's acceptable to spout racist nonsense without consequence then racism both as speech and action becomes more the norm.

If it's OK to say "we shouldn't allow more foreigners in" then saying "we should actively deport existing foreigners" even if not acceptable as an action becomes acceptable as something to say and if it keeps being reiterated then at what point does it become acceptable as an action?
Perhaps the next step is "well ok, it's wrong to deport 'foreigners' who've lived here most of their lives but perhaps it's OK to deport them if they've lived here less than 20 years".

People are easily led, tell them something extreme, get them used to the extreme view and whilst you may not be able to action it you'll be able to move them towards some action in that general direction.
History shows us no end of such manipulation.

Free speech.
It's a nice idea but nothing is truly free. What's the price you're actually prepared to pay?

pwa
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby pwa » 13 Jul 2019, 9:14am

kwackers wrote:
pwa wrote:Your suspicions about what Farage may be like beneath the skin could be correct, but as long as he plays by the rules and doesn't give voice to overt racism etc he must be allowed to present his views. The alternative is a shut down society where only a narrow range of opinion is allowed to be expressed and anything outside that is suppressed. I'd not want to live in that sort of society.

The question is where do you draw the line?

Moving the line invariably moves the median view, if it's acceptable to spout racist nonsense without consequence then racism both as speech and action becomes more the norm.

If it's OK to say "we shouldn't allow more foreigners in" then saying "we should actively deport existing foreigners" even if not acceptable as an action becomes acceptable as something to say and if it keeps being reiterated then at what point does it become acceptable as an action?
Perhaps the next step is "well ok, it's wrong to deport 'foreigners' who've lived here most of their lives but perhaps it's OK to deport them if they've lived here less than 20 years".

People are easily led, tell them something extreme, get them used to the extreme view and whilst you may not be able to action it you'll be able to move them towards some action in that general direction.
History shows us no end of such manipulation.

Free speech.
It's a nice idea but nothing is truly free. What's the price you're actually prepared to pay?

So you would ban Farage from TV? Think of the regimes where that sort of cleansing happens. Think where that goes.

PDQ Mobile
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby PDQ Mobile » 13 Jul 2019, 9:14am

stu1102 wrote:Yes agreed BUT what we can say the pound is now trading at its lowest level since 1994, historically, the British Pound reached an all time high of 2.86 in December of 1957 and a record low of 1.05 in February of 1985 and since the referendum has fallen from its value 1.50 on the night of the referendum to its current trading level of 1.25


And what we can also say is that it is not JUST the cash in your pocket (or loan!) that is worth less.

But it is everything valued in Sterling.
Stocks, shares, and other Sterling based finacial paper.
Your house (if you have one).
Anything collectable, classic vehicle/bicycle perhaps?


It is an enormous inflationary pressure.
And most of us are made poorer by inflation.

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Cunobelin
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Cunobelin » 13 Jul 2019, 9:16am

PDQ Mobile wrote:The Green Party at least have one MP and they don't get anything like the coverage of Ukip and Farage.

Farage's message is so consistently negative.

I do so wish he could paint a picture of his "sunlit uplands" in a bit more detail so we could all have a decent shot at offering critique.

His attendance in the EU parliament is shamful.
If you hate something them you don't draw its considerable salary and benefits?
It is a point of moral principle.

Nor do you attend and turn your backs and then state you have been "enslaved" (Widdecombe), such unfounded rubbish.

What we all stand to lose as EU citizens is never mentioned.



He is very shrewd

His present stance is to play to the minority that want Brexit at all costs

He doesn’t want to detail anything else because these are no longer logical, thought out or informed voters

reohn2
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby reohn2 » 13 Jul 2019, 9:17am

pwa wrote:
reohn2 wrote:Which they have been everytime I watch him on QT,no figures no sound argumentands that stand up to scrutiny,all bluster and loud mouth talking or even shouting over anyone who makes the opposing POV.The last time he was on he was a disgrace trying to bully and shout down Anna Soubry.
The man is an utter disgrace!


Which shows that putting him on QT, alongside people with other strands of opinion, allows viewers to make up their own minds. As it should be.

I agree,but it doesn't seem to put people off him surprisingly.
On the contrary his attitude and bully boy demeaner seems to attract rather than repel,any policies other than leaving the EU are sadly lacking.He's a one trick pony a loudmouth Trumpalike who's interests are solely self and his pay masters.
An even further right Tory(were that possible) and a disaster in waiting for the ordinary people who he's hoodwinked into thinking he's their knight in shining armour on a pure white unicorn.
You can't fool all the people all the time,but you can fool enough of them long enough to make a few bob out of them.
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PDQ Mobile
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby PDQ Mobile » 13 Jul 2019, 9:20am

pwa wrote:So you would ban Farage from TV? Think of the regimes where that sort of cleansing happens. Think where that goes.


I would say put your finances and backers where they should be; in the open.
Register your Party and then you get a platform.

Otherwise TaTa from Question time on such a regular basis.

kwackers
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby kwackers » 13 Jul 2019, 9:24am

pwa wrote:So you would ban Farage from TV? Think of the regimes where that sort of cleansing happens. Think where that goes.

Ban him no? Give him less airtime? Definitely.

His position in the world doesn't warrant the attention he gets and it's a cyclic thing. He got attention with his outspoken views not because he was right, once he had the attention he milked it and the media played along.
Had they ignored him nobody would feel badly done by.

Still leaves the question though, what price are you prepared to pay for free speech?
I don't claim it's an easy question because imo it's an uncomfortable one.
We didn't evolve to be nice to each other and in the modern world you only need a small number of outspoken people using the internet as a platform and spouting populist nonsense to fire the masses...

reohn2
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby reohn2 » 13 Jul 2019, 9:31am

kwackers wrote:....People are easily led, tell them something extreme, get them used to the extreme view and whilst you may not be able to action it you'll be able to move them towards some action in that general direction.
History shows us no end of such manipulation.

Spot on!

Free speech.
It's a nice idea but nothing is truly free. What's the price you're actually prepared to pay?

Without responsibility and accountability it's word brawl.
Farage is good at leading baised none thinking people on,telling them what there prejudiced ears and minds are itching to hear,the rest who vote for his despicable party fail to see where where it leads us all to.It's within living memory his likeness set the world on fire!
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reohn2
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby reohn2 » 13 Jul 2019, 9:38am

pwa wrote:So you would ban Farage from TV? Think of the regimes where that sort of cleansing happens. Think where that goes.

The problem is that he's never called to account for what he says by lacklustre journalists not willing to corner him and hound him explanations of his pitiful policies.
As bad as things are now one wonders what UK life would look like with him and his cronies in charge.
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reohn2
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby reohn2 » 13 Jul 2019, 9:40am

Cunobelin wrote:.......He doesn’t want to detail anything else because these are no longer logical, thought out or informed voters

Quite!
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irc
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby irc » 13 Jul 2019, 9:43am

kwackers wrote:
pwa wrote:So you would ban Farage from TV? Think of the regimes where that sort of cleansing happens. Think where that goes.

Ban him no? Give him less airtime? Definitely.

His position in the world doesn't warrant the attention he gets..


He leads a party that won the Euro elections and advocates Brexit the side that won a majority in the referendum. It seems to me that does justify regular QT appearances. Though I agree having a greater number of different Brexit Party politicians on QT would be a good thing.

reohn2
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby reohn2 » 13 Jul 2019, 9:46am

PDQ Mobile wrote:
pwa wrote:So you would ban Farage from TV? Think of the regimes where that sort of cleansing happens. Think where that goes.


I would say put your finances and backers where they should be; in the open.
Register your Party and then you get a platform.

Otherwise TaTa from Question time on such a regular basis.

And the same goes for all political parties however large or small down to donations down to £50 or more.
As Cunobelin posted above,he's a shrewd customer and not the only one who's playing the system to his favour,the system is corrupt and the rules of the system are set by the corrupted!
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kwackers
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby kwackers » 13 Jul 2019, 10:01am

irc wrote:He leads a party that won the Euro elections and advocates Brexit the side that won a majority in the referendum. It seems to me that does justify regular QT appearances. Though I agree having a greater number of different Brexit Party politicians on QT would be a good thing.

That's true now, what about before?

Be nice to get some actual practical views on brexit rather than the usual Farage soundbites.

reohn2
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby reohn2 » 13 Jul 2019, 10:09am

kwackers wrote: ....Be nice to get some actual practical views on brexit rather than the usual Farage soundbites.

As we've found on this thread there's no post Brexit view,the UK has no future "lined up",less so after a crash out October 31 Brexit.
Brexit supporters on this thread who've put forward their proposals for the UK's future post Brexit,time and again haven't stood up to scrutiny.
Personally I find it hard to believe anyone can support Brexit knowing what we know now.
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