** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

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bovlomov
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby bovlomov » 13 Jul 2019, 12:38pm

andrec wrote: But most do not allow any of their laws to be made in a parliament based in a foreign country and comprised mainly of foreigners.

Is it the word 'parliament' that bothers you? Obligations to NATO are part of UK law, and they are made by a group comprising mostly of foreigners. WTO rules are made by a group comprising mostly of foreigners. And so on. Most of these organisations are less democratic than the EU. The same goes for other organisations and conventions to which the UK is a signatory. The rules are adopted into UK law and the decisions are made mostly by foreigners.

Norway has to accept rules made by foreigners in order to trade with the EU. I suspect the decisions made about any future US/UK trade deal will entirely be made by foreigners.

I'm struggling to understand your objection.
Last edited by bovlomov on 13 Jul 2019, 12:46pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby bovlomov » 13 Jul 2019, 12:46pm

andrec wrote:I have every confidence in the people of the UK to make their own laws, including those on the environment, safety, food standards, human rights etc.

A UK that makes its own laws on the environment, safety, food standards and human rights will not be able to sign a single trade treaty,

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby andrec » 13 Jul 2019, 12:57pm

PDQ Mobile wrote:Andrec.
How dare you suggest that I am not a patriot.
I am and I carry the scars to prove it.
And you?

I am a British citizen and an EU citizen.
I wish to retain the right of abode In both those places.

I have that right and you may not suggest that I leave the UK because of my political view.
It smacks of something very unpleasant and unBritish.


I want the best for the UK.
I believe leaving does not provide that.

We are still waiting for a citation from you of any bad law forced upon us by Brussels.


I have not commented on anyone's patriotism or lack of it, nor have I suggested that anyone should leave the UK or expressed a desire that anyone should do so. I was pointing out that Remainers do have a choice after Brexit. They can stay here and have all their laws made by UK people with no supervision by a foreign parliament, something which I'd have thought might appeal to some patriots, people who presumably have faith in their fellow Brits to make their own laws. Or they can emigrate to an EU country and continue to have their laws made by the EU parliament, something which pleases them at the moment and so I assume it would continue to please them if they choose to emigrate. I'll be happy to live in a country which makes all its own laws in its own parliament, a situation which is the norm for the vast majority of countries in the world. I won't be supplying you with any list of EU laws I don't like, or any I do. As I have pointed out previously, I do not want any of my laws made in a parliament based in a foreign country and which mainly comprises foreign people. Just as the Japanese, the Brazilians, the Nigerians, the Americans, the Peruvians, the Mexicans. the Israelis, the Norwegians etc etc have all their laws made by their own domestic parliaments and none in a foreign based one comprising mainly foreign nationals, I want the UK to do the same.

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Cugel
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Cugel » 13 Jul 2019, 12:58pm

PDQ Mobile wrote:Andrec.
How dare you suggest that I am not a patriot.
I am and I carry the scars to prove it.
And you?

I am a British citizen and an EU citizen.
I wish to retain the right of abode In both those places.

I have that right and you may not suggest that I leave the UK because of my political view.
It smacks of something very unpleasant and unBritish.


I want the best for the UK.
I believe leaving does not provide that.

We are still waiting for a citation from you of any bad law forced upon us by Brussels.


The dislike based on a pretense that we're somehow subject to laws invented and impose entirely by foreigners is just a cover for not liking foreigners. There are no such foreign-imposed laws but only those agreed between EU members including Britain. In fact, out of the EU we will be subject to laws imposed by foreigners if we want to trade with them, with no British say in those laws.

Xenophobia is a British tradition, exhibiting and manifesting in various forms over the last two centuries. Jingo still lives. Many in Britain have lost such attitudes but these attitudes also fester on in those who lack any sense of self-worth and must obtain it by belonging to some imaginary "patriotic" group of those who dislike or even hate foreigners on principle as "not like us". When examined, such people are often not really, themselves, like anything at all - other than the latest bilious editorial of some rabble-rousing newspap. Their "Britishness" is a nothing more than a shallow construct of the gutter press.

******

Like you, I feel that adding some constituents of European cultures to my British cultural makeup is an enhancement, not a replacement. Many of those wishing to leave to EU are afraid of a bogeyman - an imaginary subjugation to imaginary evil foreigners plotting to somehow delete Britishness. Personally I feel these bogey-frightened people are deluded fools and give their bleatings the appropriate credence and value.

But let a leaver make a good case against continuing EU membership, based in reality rather than a churning xenophobia full of imaginary plots by Germans and Frenchmen, and I'm very open to persuasion. The EU certainly has many aspects I dislike on policy grounds - too neoliberal and not green enough, for example. But a Tory neolib Britain or a puny state subjugated by the likes of Trump seems far, far worse a prospect than an EU that's at least open to amendment and change for the better.

Cugel

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby roubaixtuesday » 13 Jul 2019, 1:11pm

andrec wrote:I don't want a foreign parliament to have any say in the laws we have to obey in the UK, and I have every confidence in the people of the UK to make their own laws, including those on the environment, safety, food standards, human rights etc.


Alas, even under the greatest fantasy of Brexit: "let's go, WTO!!" we have to obey the rules of the WTO.

That means our laws are constrained by WTO rules.

The only difference is that we have much less say over the rules of the WTO, and those rules are much worse for us than those of the EU single market.

Brexit is the exact antithesis of taking back control; it's actually submitting to truly faceless international organisations.

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby 661-Pete » 13 Jul 2019, 1:25pm

This 'andrec' has only been on this forum for less than two weeks and has taken a persistently confrontational stance against other forum members. In fact the overwhelming majority of his or her posts have been on this thread.

I cannot help but be reminded of one "blackbike" late of this parish. Are they one and the same person, I wonder?

Yes: I know full well that a similar accusation was levelled at another confrontational forum member, some months ago - and led to indignant denials. I'm prepared for that!
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby PDQ Mobile » 13 Jul 2019, 1:26pm

Andrec.
I would point out that if we leave with no deal or some other restriction of freedom of movement, moving to another EU country will become impossible.


It's almost like you've reinvented Catch 22.

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby andrec » 13 Jul 2019, 1:36pm

roubaixtuesday wrote:
andrec wrote:I don't want a foreign parliament to have any say in the laws we have to obey in the UK, and I have every confidence in the people of the UK to make their own laws, including those on the environment, safety, food standards, human rights etc.


Alas, even under the greatest fantasy of Brexit: "let's go, WTO!!" we have to obey the rules of the WTO.

That means our laws are constrained by WTO rules.

The only difference is that we have much less say over the rules of the WTO, and those rules are much worse for us than those of the EU single market.

Brexit is the exact antithesis of taking back control; it's actually submitting to truly faceless international organisations.


Most of the world's trade is done under WTO rules, and most countries seem to manage without submitting themselves to the authority of a foreign based parliament. I have no problem with Remainers wanting us to continue under the supervision of a foreign based parliament, but they lost the people's vote and so they can't have what they want. That's tough for them, but that's democracy. We can't all have everything we want. I think some Remainers are having trouble with this simple fact of life. If I felt so strongly that life under the EU parliament is so important and that life in a self governing UK will not be to my liking I would consider emigrating to its jurisdiction. Surely that would be no problem for people who tell us they feel European first and foremost, as quite a few Remainers do. All they'd be doing is moving a relatively short distance in global terms from one part of Europe to another. The history of Europe tells us that people have often moved around the continent in the hope of a better life, so they would be continuing that tradition. As some Remainers tell us they are young and/or well educated I'm sure many countries would be glad to have them.

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby bovlomov » 13 Jul 2019, 1:47pm

andrec wrote:Most of the world's trade is done under WTO rules, and most countries seem to manage without submitting themselves to the authority of a foreign based parliament. I have no problem with Remainers wanting us to continue under the supervision of a foreign based parliament, but they lost the people's vote and so they can't have what they want. .

That word 'parliament' again. The WTO, NATO, UN, and all those other organisations that make the rules we abide by - they aren't parliaments.

Is your problem with the EU, that there is an open parliament? Are you happier when UK rules are made by foreigners, without democratic accountability and often behind closed doors?

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby kwackers » 13 Jul 2019, 1:55pm

andrec wrote:If I felt so strongly that life under the EU parliament is so important and that life in a self governing UK will not be to my liking I would consider emigrating to its jurisdiction.

Here's an alternative view. Perhaps some of us simply aren't hung up on laws designed to make trade fair?
A good law is a good law regardless of who originates it and given we do actually have a say and indeed are responsible for more than a few it's difficult to find an argument against them - even more so when frankly it matters not.

You say you're not going to give a list of laws you don't like, perhaps the simple fact is it's not about the laws at all but more to do with a feeling that Johnny Foreigner is telling you what to do.
Well, good luck with that. Trump has already made clear what the battle lines are and when (if) we leave the EU be prepared for hardball from them too.

I seriously wish you guys were capable of drawing up a list of the benefits of leaving but it appears not.

Good luck with the WTO tariffs btw, I hope your job isn't affected, I see brexit has been firmly implicated in British Steels demise - but then what fool would sign a contract with a company whom under WTO tariffs will shortly be raising it's prices by twenty odd percent?
Trading under WTO is going to be interesting when our neighbours in Europe are continually undercutting us with their free trade and high standards.

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby pete75 » 13 Jul 2019, 2:02pm

661-Pete wrote:This 'andrec' has only been on this forum for less than two weeks and has taken a persistently confrontational stance against other forum members. In fact the overwhelming majority of his or her posts have been on this thread.

I cannot help but be reminded of one "blackbike" late of this parish. Are they one and the same person, I wonder?

Yes: I know full well that a similar accusation was levelled at another confrontational forum member, some months ago - and led to indignant denials. I'm prepared for that!

Blackbike aka Blackshirt yes they do seem very similar particularly with the I won you lost jibes. Not really the way a good winner behaves but that's probably because they're so used to losing they don't know how a winner should behave.

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby roubaixtuesday » 13 Jul 2019, 2:17pm

andrec wrote:
roubaixtuesday wrote:
andrec wrote:I don't want a foreign parliament to have any say in the laws we have to obey in the UK, and I have every confidence in the people of the UK to make their own laws, including those on the environment, safety, food standards, human rights etc.


Alas, even under the greatest fantasy of Brexit: "let's go, WTO!!" we have to obey the rules of the WTO.

That means our laws are constrained by WTO rules.

The only difference is that we have much less say over the rules of the WTO, and those rules are much worse for us than those of the EU single market.

Brexit is the exact antithesis of taking back control; it's actually submitting to truly faceless international organisations.


Most of the world's trade is done under WTO rules, and most countries seem to manage without submitting themselves to the authority of a foreign based parliament. I have no problem with Remainers wanting us to continue under the supervision of a foreign based parliament, but they lost the people's vote and so they can't have what they want. That's tough for them, but that's democracy. We can't all have everything we want. I think some Remainers are having trouble with this simple fact of life. If I felt so strongly that life under the EU parliament is so important and that life in a self governing UK will not be to my liking I would consider emigrating to its jurisdiction. Surely that would be no problem for people who tell us they feel European first and foremost, as quite a few Remainers do. All they'd be doing is moving a relatively short distance in global terms from one part of Europe to another. The history of Europe tells us that people have often moved around the continent in the hope of a better life, so they would be continuing that tradition. As some Remainers tell us they are young and/or well educated I'm sure many countries would be glad to have them.


Noted that you don't address the point of Brexit meaning we will still be subject to supra national organisations and will have less control than now.

Your rather rambling attempt to say yah boo sucks also noted.

Finally a suggestion to use paragraphs to aid your communications in future.

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby kwackers » 13 Jul 2019, 2:37pm

pete75 wrote:Blackbike aka Blackshirt yes they do seem very similar particularly with the I won you lost jibes. Not really the way a good winner behaves but that's probably because they're so used to losing they don't know how a winner should behave.

I have seen the occasional leaver with the "it's the only thing I've ever won so I'm not going to give it up" attitude.
I originally wrote it off as the occasional oddball but perhaps it's more prevalent than I imagined.

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby 100%JR » 13 Jul 2019, 3:00pm

Almost 150 pages on this thread since I last looked in....I'm surprised it hasn't been locked :lol: :lol:
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby brynpoeth » 13 Jul 2019, 3:51pm

100%JR wrote:Almost 150 pages on this thread since I last looked in....I'm surprised it hasn't been locked :lol: :lol:

It was locked a second time, maybe more times that I missed, then unlocked
I don't bother looking at it so often either
Much prefer humour, technical etc
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