** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

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andrec
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby andrec » 18 Jul 2019, 5:38pm

Oldjohnw wrote:
al_yrpal wrote:Yes Pete, if they feel they can't stand home rule. That sounds sensible. It's an option

Al

So why didn't the millions who didn't like the EU leave rather than bring this mess on us?


To live in your own country and to be ruled by your own parliament with no oversight from one in a foreign country is quite a reasonable thing to want. It is how most countries operate. People who want this but don't have it cannot get it by leaving their own country. People who prefer being ruled by a foreign parliament can live anywhere but their own country, or if they live in the EU they can live in their own country too. For British people in this category their choice is soon to be reduced by one country, the UK. They will still have the choice of all the other countries in the world, or only all other EU countries if they insist that they are ruled by the EU parliament.

pete75
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby pete75 » 18 Jul 2019, 5:42pm

al_yrpal wrote:Yes Pete, if they feel they can't stand home rule. That sounds sensible. It's an option

Al

In other words people who think differently to you should leave. Political cleansing. Scary when suggested by folk with far right views - is it the thin end of a vicious wedge?

pete75
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby pete75 » 18 Jul 2019, 5:47pm

andrec wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:
al_yrpal wrote:Yes Pete, if they feel they can't stand home rule. That sounds sensible. It's an option

Al

So why didn't the millions who didn't like the EU leave rather than bring this mess on us?


To live in your own country and to be ruled by your own parliament with no oversight from one in a foreign country is quite a reasonable thing to want. It is how most countries operate. People who want this but don't have it cannot get it by leaving their own country. People who prefer being ruled by a foreign parliament can live anywhere but their own country, or if they live in the EU they can live in their own country too. For British people in this category their choice is soon to be reduced by one country, the UK. They will still have the choice of all the other countries in the world, or only all other EU countries if they insist that they are ruled by the EU parliament.

There's one basic but substantial flaw in your argument - it's based on a delusion. We're not and never have been ruled by a foreign parliament.

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bovlomov
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby bovlomov » 18 Jul 2019, 5:57pm

pete75 wrote: We're not and never have been ruled by a foreign parliament.

Nevertheless, our government often bows to the wishes of foreign states. Most often that's the US, not the EU. You have only to look at our relationship with Saudi Arabia to see how the UK is not in charge of its own destiny. A UK outside the EU will be no more independent, but it will be more desperate. Vassal state doesn't begin to describe it.

merseymouth
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby merseymouth » 18 Jul 2019, 6:10pm

Hi all, Today the number crunchers for HMG have announced their forecast post "Hard Brexit". Big scary numbers.
But a question for those who want Remain to prevail - "How much money was spent with "Quantative Easing"?
Parliament put regulations in place to control the silly bankers, then it all went pear shaped.
Don't blame me or other Leavers for that. TTFN MM

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al_yrpal
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby al_yrpal » 18 Jul 2019, 6:54pm

bovlomov wrote:
al_yrpal wrote:Yes Pete, if they feel they can't stand home rule. That sounds sensible. It's an option

There will never be home rule. Control of our nuclear weapons, energy supplies, foreign policy, food supply, food standards, farming, oil supplies, transport systems, surveillance systems, human rights, science research, ... ...have all been outsourced to, or shared with, foreigners to some degree. In many cases (US/UK extradition for example) the relationship is unbalanced, not in our favour. You may argue about the pros and cons of each of those relationships, case by case. But there is literally no prospect that the UK government - still less UK citizens - will ever be in a position to make unilateral decisions about all those things.

And as a weakened state we will be compelled to bend to the will of foreign states more than ever before. Promises of home rule, sovereignty and independence are simplistic.


You can peddle this view all you like but it doesnt compute and sadly its typical of peopke who have given up on Britain. After Brexit it will be our elected government that has the last say on all these things. We will choose whether to operate to standards that are common to our trading partners and allies, but in future that will be soleley our choice

Al
Touring on a bicycle is a great way to explore and appreciate the countryside and towns you pass through. CTC gone but not forgotten!

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bovlomov
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby bovlomov » 18 Jul 2019, 7:03pm

al_yrpal wrote:
bovlomov wrote:
al_yrpal wrote:Yes Pete, if they feel they can't stand home rule. That sounds sensible. It's an option

There will never be home rule. Control of our nuclear weapons, energy supplies, foreign policy, food supply, food standards, farming, oil supplies, transport systems, surveillance systems, human rights, science research, ... ...have all been outsourced to, or shared with, foreigners to some degree. In many cases (US/UK extradition for example) the relationship is unbalanced, not in our favour. You may argue about the pros and cons of each of those relationships, case by case. But there is literally no prospect that the UK government - still less UK citizens - will ever be in a position to make unilateral decisions about all those things.

And as a weakened state we will be compelled to bend to the will of foreign states more than ever before. Promises of home rule, sovereignty and independence are simplistic.


You can peddle this view all you like but it doesnt compute and sadly its typical of peopke who have given up on Britain. After Brexit it will be our elected government that has the last say on all these things. We will choose whether to operate to standards that are common to our trading partners and allies, but in future that will be soleley our choice

What doesn't compute? Which bit is wrong? Be specific. I haven't given up on Britain, but I do have a realistic view of our place in the world.

Yes, it will be solely our choice, but the choice will be made from a much weaker position. The size of our markets give us very little bargaining power. This is not speculation. Ask Liam Fox.

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al_yrpal
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby al_yrpal » 18 Jul 2019, 7:07pm

pete75 wrote:
al_yrpal wrote:Yes Pete, if they feel they can't stand home rule. That sounds sensible. It's an option

Al

In other words people who think differently to you should leave. Political cleansing. Scary when suggested by folk with far right views - is it the thin end of a vicious wedge?


Its an option for them Pete, your attempt to put words in my mouth failed :D I wouldnt support any compulsion or even any pressure. Fortunately its still a free country and everyone here can choose what they do despite the Superstate's efforts.

Al
Touring on a bicycle is a great way to explore and appreciate the countryside and towns you pass through. CTC gone but not forgotten!

Oldjohnw
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Oldjohnw » 18 Jul 2019, 7:14pm

I never have been ruled by a foreign government or parliament. My own government has had a variety of treaties and agreements with other governments and legislatures, including the EU, NATO and the UN. The EU is particularly interesting because I have always votes for the members of that parliament.

Meanwhile, I still await the evidence of my being ruled by a foreign parliament. Merely repeating something does not make it so.

I do know a bit about the EU having worked with and for them over a number of years. And no, they don't pay my pension.
John

Cycling and recycling

PDQ Mobile
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby PDQ Mobile » 18 Jul 2019, 7:16pm

al_yrpal wrote:
pete75 wrote:
al_yrpal wrote:Yes Pete, if they feel they can't stand home rule. That sounds sensible. It's an option

Al

In other words people who think differently to you should leave. Political cleansing. Scary when suggested by folk with far right views - is it the thin end of a vicious wedge?


Its an option for them Pete, your attempt to put words in my mouth failed :D I wouldnt support any compulsion or even any pressure. Fortunately its still a free country and everyone here can choose what they do despite the Superstate's efforts.

Al

as I pointed out to Andrec, the option to become a full time resident somewhere in the EU will dissapear if we leave with no deal.
Indeed even those who are resident there for less than 5 years find themselves in a position of much insecurity.
Such is the uncertainty.
So your position seems poorly thought though.

PDQ Mobile
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby PDQ Mobile » 18 Jul 2019, 7:17pm

Oldjohnw wrote:I never have been ruled by a foreign government or parliament. My own government has had a variety of treaties and agreements with other governments and legislatures, including the EU, NATO and the UN. The EU is particularly interesting because I have always votes for the members of that parliament.

Meanwhile, I still await the evidence of my being ruled by a foreign parliament. Merely repeating something does not make it so.


Quite so.

Oldjohnw
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Oldjohnw » 18 Jul 2019, 8:06pm

Much of our infrastructure is, of course, more or less run by foreign governments or companies. It has been privatised by people in support of Brexit, not at the request of the EU. This process can be expected to continue when we leave the EU, with American institutions the beneficiaries.
John

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Mike Sales
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Mike Sales » 18 Jul 2019, 8:33pm

We need American permission to use "our" nuclear bombs.
Airstrip1, Oceania.

Oldjohnw
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Oldjohnw » 19 Jul 2019, 7:32am

In the 2016 referendum one of the battle cries was about 'taking back control' and repatriating power to the UK Parliament. (My personal view of that is that it was a false argument based on a false premise: Parliament has always been sovereign.We make laws on tax, welfare, transport, defence, foreign policy, education without any recourse to Brussels).

Since the referendum we have had repeated attempts by the executive to bypass that very Parliament. This has even included having to go to the Supreme court to ensure Parliament would have a debate, and judges were branded traitors and enemies of the people.

This continues to this day with Tory leadership candidates threatening to close down parliament.

It is most dispiriting.
John

Cycling and recycling

Hobbs1951
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Hobbs1951 » 19 Jul 2019, 8:01am

In control of our own destiny, democracy, what drivel - e.g the beardy pasty man is clueless, we're about to get the second Prime Minister we never voted for, the second being a Trump mini-me voted in by less than 2% of the population and they're all old buffers with no interest except their own self interest and narrow flat earther, science denier, little England views.

No cheers for democracy - apologies to E.M Forster.

No leaver on this forum has ever EVER made a rational argument based on facts for leaving the EU (being a positive thing), and all they ever say when confronted with views they don't like (and they haven't the wit to evaluate those views) is a version of the fake news mantra.

The country is going, going, going to the dogs thanks to the leaver mentality (that's why most of our finest companies (utilities included) have been sold off to foreign"investors".

As I've said before, when the **** storm arrives, those that voted leave should suffer first - at the back of the NHS queue, at the back of the food queue, suffer higher interest rates, see their savings and pensions decline in value...

John.